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What happened to the suppposed 25 versions of the 512S produced ?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Kds, Jan 16, 2007.

  1. Marcel Massini

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  2. Timmmmmmmmmmy

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    #577 Timmmmmmmmmmy, Feb 17, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
    Totally agree.
     
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  4. Marcel Massini

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    1038.

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  5. Nembo1777

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    Nurburgring 1000kms 1970 I do believe as Zeltweg had no trees like that.
     
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  6. GIOTTO

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    OK Marc, it's at the Nurburgring but NOT during the 1000 km race. It's during a practice session just AFTER the 1000 km race at Spa. As says Marcel it's #1038 (n°20 at Spa). If you look closely, you can see a Gulf 917 with the nose in the back of the 512.
     
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  7. The Strad

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    Beautiful vintage film about tests with the 512 S at Circuit of Pergusa. Not sure whether it was '69 or '70.
    (Please switch off the sound some silly music is heard instead of that great 512 S engine!)

     
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  8. Nembo1777

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    #583 Nembo1777, Feb 18, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
    Thanks, yes I thought it odd that the car has the little downforce generating lips on the side of the nose which were used at Spa only (IIRC). Most people don't know that to drive from Spa to the Nurburgring is only about 120kms and as the crow flies the distance is only a third that so a test session at one right after a race at the other makes sense.

    In the video Vaccarella and Giunti are outside of the car with Forghieri but who is the driver with helmet? I think maybe Peter Schetty? You can tell it is very cold, I went there twice last winter to inspect and retrieve a car -even passed by Enna Pergusa at night- and it was not at all that cold...
     
  9. Marcel Massini

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    Great movie, thanks very much.
    Here's a color pic of that memorable day in Enna (Pergusa).

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  10. GIOTTO

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    Arturo Merzario.
     
  11. Nembo1777

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    Yes without his trademark hat I did not recognize him;-)
     
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  12. Marcel Massini

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  13. turbo-joe

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    great marcel that you share all those nice photos and a lot of information with all us here :) :) :)
     
  14. Nembo1777

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  15. GIOTTO

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    Herbert Müller in his junkyard. Don't ask for serial numbers.
     
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  16. Nembo1777

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    Yup and it is just bodywork anyway:)
     
  17. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

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    this is exactly the point, notwithstanding the anger of some people who want their car to be this or that one.

    The 1970 period was extraordinary because of the FIA decision regarding sports cars that allowed deep pocket Porsche and Ferrari-cum-FIAT money to produce series of 25 homologated prototype.

    Before that in the fifties and sixties real prototypes were built in handful of copies, 2,3,5 etc and were used for several seasons making it easier to identify.
    The exception being the 250LM a prototype in disguise but they ran long enough.
    Those cars were identified with their bodies but also matching engines and their history was reasonably easy to trace.

    Suddenly in 1969 and 1970 , 50 cars were produced and used for 2 to 3 years by the factory teams and related entities.
    And those cars evolved massively during this short period.
    No 917 look anymore in 1971 like the 1969 presentation and had recently to be restored back to this configuration.( I saw the diagram related to the parts incorporated in one of the 917 exhibited at Retromobile this year,,, and while a genuine car, provenance of parts was covering 2 double pages,,,with other cars involved.)

    I think no 512S is anymore in the exact configuration of the original presentation to the FIA and the press.
    For the 512S the bodies evolved continuously during 1970 for each race, and then the update to 512M made it even different.
    The works cars kept using different engines , gearbox’s and other mechanical components during the season, like F1 cars today, making the concept of matching numbers largely irrelevant for those cars. While a lot of people have worked to
    re unite early Ferrari with their original engine, I never heard that this was a key issue with 512 ( so long they had an original 512 Ferrari engine!)
    With body panels made out of fiberglass ( and not hand beaten by Scaglietti) they were easy to produce in larger numbers , to modify or even to replicate.
    So the bottom line is the chassis ( not easy with un tagged chassis) and the paper trail and the history of cars, where they came from and where and to whom they ended up with, to try to determine which one is which. And of course for those which were never dismantled either totally or in part, what are their characteristics from door hinges to vents etc.
    And for those which were restored to ensure they are as close as possible to their original configuration.

    The fact that the factory stopped racing them after 2 seasons to concentrate on Formula 1 and on 3 Litre sports prototype, certainly reduced Ferrari’s interest to continue to track what happened to each car,( and probably the biggest write off ever for the factory with so much money spent ending up indirectly in the making of the Le Mans movie . ( thank you Steve Mc Queen that bailed out many people while almost going bankrupt himself!).

    With so many cars ending up with Muller whom as we can see did not have a very elaborated filing and storage system, it even became more complex to track ( specially as it seem he loved taking tags out and keeping them in his office!).

    But those were the times and to those who are today the guardians of those machines, they should just enjoy the fact that they are able to own and race and admire those dinosaurs, a rare species which had no successors but are, in my view, one of the most striking example of function creating form and the epitomes of 1970 endurance racing.
     
  18. The Strad

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    Original FIA documents of the 512 S.
    Difficult to read, but still, those are scans of the documents of the official homologation.
     

    Attached Files:

  19. Marcel Massini

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  20. Timmmmmmmmmmy

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    Great post but two minor corrections, 25 each of the 917s and 512s were built to meet the FIA production numbers for Group 5.

    Totally off topic but with interesting parallels to these 512s, the 917L at Retromobile which is stamped #917-043. It is claimed to have been one seven or eight 917s sold to Vasek Polak (every other Polak car is recorded in Porsche files complete with detailed notes of what was sold but not this one which was recorded as scrapped by Porsche with parts used to build Sifferts 917/10), claimed to have then been sold by Polak to Brazil in the mid 1970s (the Brazilian trip story makes zero sense and AFAIK no records exist to prove it was imported into Brazil) and then returned to Europe for restoration. Only the last step has been investigated and proven but it seems 99% certain its a fakey do. Certainly most 917 experts think it is anything but a legitimate 917. But when 917s are fetching $20 - 40 million, one can see why ten new 917s have surfaced in the past decade with varying claims to being one of the scrapped cars.
     
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  21. Marcel Massini

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  22. Jimincov

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    I’m in heaven with all these pictures & 512 talk thanks to all posters!
     
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  23. The Strad

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  24. GIOTTO

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  25. Marcel Massini

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