What happened to the suppposed 25 versions of the 512S produced ? | Page 19 | FerrariChat

What happened to the suppposed 25 versions of the 512S produced ?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Kds, Jan 16, 2007.

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  1. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Here's a comparison photo showing 1004 at Monza 24 April 1970.
    Outside door hinges, cockpit air ventilation holes in roof.

    Marcel Massini


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  2. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    This photo was taken in the old paddock of the Nürburgring on Friday (10th August 1979) before the VII Annual AvD-Oldtimer-Grand Prix.
    Man in white pants is Mr. Scholtyssek, and the guy on the right with blue jeans, blue shirt, beard and glasses and white sneakers is me.

    Marcel Massini

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  3. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    readplays and 375+ like this.
  4. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    Absolutely brilliant post. Will stir the pot a little
     
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  5. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
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  6. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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  7. p gio

    p gio Karting

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    Peter Giorgio

    You are correct!

    There is a major issue with the cars!

    However, there has never been any question whether the Giordano car is real or not. That is a 100% authentic 512s. There is no disputing that.

    The main issue is that the Giordano car was not Classiche certified (the process was started, all paperwork in, all photos submitted, etc, etc) and Lampe's car was all of a sudden was certified #1004- case closed. There was no disputing it, discussing it, nothing.

    And what is being missed in all of these threads, and the reason Lampe's car has been scrutinized so much, is because all the evidence points to him not having much of anything, he had some car fabricated, and that is what became certified #1004.
     
  8. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    Please post the evidence, as Marcel has done. It's simple.
     
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  9. p gio

    p gio Karting

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    What evidence did he post?

    Mr Massini is posting about the Giordano car- asserting that it is #1046 and not #1004, but the Giordano car has not been Classiche certified.

    It is Mr. Massini's best educated guess that this could be that car. However, it has NEVER been confirmed that it is #1046.

    Furthermore, it has never been confirmed by Ferrari Classiche that it is in fact #1004- but prior to a bunch of people creating a Classiche system- in order to make some money- all of the documentation that came with the car, history with the car, etc. etc. is what is the supporting argument that it is.
    (Basically it is all of the information you would submit for the Classiche process to prove your car's history- without receiving your trophy- ie: red book- ummm that needs to be continually updated).

    However, that is NOT the point in this entire thread that I piggy backed on several weeks ago.

    The original thread that I started posting on was a post questioning what happened to #1012 and how it magically disappeared.

    This a thread intended to make people think. Similar to a jury at a trial. Both sides need to provide evidence to support their case and a panel of unbiased people decided based on what is presented.

    I am presenting that there is something super fishy about Manfred's car being certified as #1004.

    If you want to start to believe that the Giordano car is #1046 rather than #1004, based on whatever "evidence" you think you have seen or read or tried to understand, that is fine- it is still a 100% authentic, genuine, and magnificent Ferrari 512.

    However, that still DOES NOT answer the main question of what the heck did Manfred get to be certified? That is where all of the garbled mess lies. That is the web that I am working on to untangle.
     
  10. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
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    Mr. Giorgio. A forum or a thread is always more interesting with pictures. So if you have some to share here they are welcome. Thank you.
     
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  11. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #461 Marcel Massini, Feb 13, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
    @"Mr. Giorgio" (re your post #459)

    What is the REAL reason for your ongoing "attack"?
    War against Ferrari Classiche?
    War against Manfred Lampe?
    War against the current owner of the certified 1004?

    And please explain why the Giordano car arrived in USA with the number 1016 on it and kept that number for quite some time and then suddenly was changed with a new self-fabricated and non-factory tag "1004"? And who did that exactly?

    And how do you explain that German Klaus Scholtyssek identified his car (the later Giordano car) as 1016 on his greeting card? See post #450.

    You may also want to post the several (rather not so nice, not so friendly) letters sent to Luca Cordero di Montezemolo.

    FYI 1: Nobody ever stated that Giordano's car is NOT real or NOT good or NOT authentic. It is actually a super nice and rather genuine and authentic 512 S. It just doesn't have the race history as originally published decades ago. And yes, it has changed identity several times. And yes, I agree, it is a 100% authentic, genuine and magnificent 512 S, no doubt at all. It is neither a replica nor a reconstruction but the real deal.

    FYI 2: I have no horse in this race. I am not on anybody's payroll and do not work for Classiche, nor for Lampe nor for the current owner. How about you?

    As for 1012: Here's what is listed in the factory archive for this chassis number: "Telaio tagliata a pezzi perchè irrecuperabile" (which loosely translates into "Chassis cut into pieces because it cannot be repaired").
    1012 was never sold and ceased to exist.

    And no, I am not "guessing". Not at all.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  12. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    HOW do you know?
    You do not.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  13. p gio

    p gio Karting

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    Im happy to reply.
    However Im not sure why you are putting my name in quotes....

    1) My "attack" and I dont feel it is, but rather a strong and passionate alternate view point regarding a very interesting topic regarding these cars. There has been a lot of discussion on these threads (way before I came along) which is which regarding the 512cars.

    2) Not a war against Classiche. However, the more research that I do, have read about, etc. Classiche is a money making part of Ferrari now, and it can be viewed as "interesting" when some cars get certified. (It has been a topic on FC several times.) I am not just citing the issue regarding the 2 512 cars when saying this. There have been other historical Ferraris (and other cars in history) that have been known to have "history x" and then another car is certified and given that x history. So in the matter of these 2 512 cars- could Ferrari have been mislead? Perhaps. And as I posted (and you liked -pg 18 #430) Manfred was utilized by the factory in Classiche cases because of his excellent record keeping. Was he involved in this case? Only Ferrari (and maybe some others) truly know.

    3) War against Manfred? Well it seems that way in these posts, but I dont know him personally. What I am trying to do is get to the bottom of this, get people to think, gather information, and make sense of what has been called a "mess" regarding these cars.

    4) I dont have to explain why the car arrived as #1016. That has been discussed and discussed and discussed. You also know the answer. It was stamped that for carnet purposes. The car being stamped that number has never been hidden or debated. Nor it being changed to #1004. This was also covered in several threads. It was changed solely for the integrity of the history of the car, and to not duplicate Bob Rapp's car at the time. It was changed based on receipts, and all of the historical evidence presented at that time- but you already knew all of this and we are talking in a circle.

    5) same answer as #4- not disputing that the car was marked #1016. It definitely was.

    6) Im not aware of any letters to Luca Cordero di Montezemolo.

    FYI 1) I agree with you 100% about the Giordano car and everything you wrote in that part. However, because there are several people on this chat page, and other sites on the internet, who are not aware of the histories of these types of cars, it has been mentioned and questioned whether the Giordano car is in fact real (p6 #148- is one example). In addition to that, people on chats do not read, follow, or understand the entire thread, and sometimes comment on the last thing they read.

    FYI 2) if you are not on anyone's payroll, and are not defending Manfred- why do you keep inserting yourself on these posts? I have never asked for any of your feedback and am utilizing this chat as a forum and presenting one side of a story. Heck, I didnt even start this original thread. Some person did long ago and I only just learned about it while doing research about the story I am focused on.
    And no, I do not have a horse in this race either. I am purely a writer who started following these types of cars in college, wrote a few papers and small articles over the years, and have been intrigued ever since. And through my learning, about Ferrari, Classiche, and talking to people over the years, I heard of a story about car #1022/#1032 and the Christie's scandal from 1989. Again something you have commented on here and tried to explain (#69 on this thread) That is a very interesting story and it is plausible that something very similar could happen again- if it hasnt already.
    Hence me hearing through the grapevine about the tale between #1004, #1046- and more importantly- what happened to #1012...

    And as for 1012- I like to keep this an open topic because although Ferrari said it was destroyed and cut into pieces- was it really? Im not sure. I wasnt there. And if it was really destroyed and cut up into little pieces- then what did Manfred use to build his car?

    As the respected historian you are, I am sure you would want to get to the bottom of what is real and what is not. In my experience with historians (of any level) they typically are focused on the facts and nothing else as to not choose sides. So why keep inserting yourself? In some of these posts it seems as though you are choosing sides, but then it seems contradictory as you posted a picture about the #1012 fake chassis stamp, then post another picture about the gear housing selector with 4 numbers stamped on it- when it should only have 1, and then post all of these photos with information regarding #1046. So this just adds to the confusion.

    I have no venom toward you, and appreciate what looks like your genuine love for these cars and their histories. No reason to attack me either- if you are genuinely not taking sides- and could have private messaged me if you wanted to remain seemingly unbiased.
     
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  14. p gio

    p gio Karting

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    People like to talk.
    And as you have shared that you have no horse in this race, people that do have horses talk.
    They love to talk. Its a big topic- especially when there is money and scandal involved... or they have experienced an injustice themselves.
    No one is really sure which is which and what is what- which makes for a compelling story
     
  15. p gio

    p gio Karting

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    Sorry... did not respond to one of your questions- there were so many:

    War on the current owner of #1004- absolutely not!
    The current owner I would feel very badly for as they would be a victim.
    There would be several victims in this particular case.
    The current owner, and previous owner would be victims, and even Girardo as the broker could be a victim.
     
  16. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    So you do have a horse in this race, right?
    And you have experienced an injustice yourself?

    ???

    Marcel Massini
     
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  17. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    As I said before, plenty of people here agree with you regarding Classiche, no need to repeat it once and again, and more importantly, it is not the main issue here.

    You are using the Classiche certification of the car whose legitimacy you are disputing in order to create a storm around your claim that that car is in fact the remnants of the destroyed frame 1012. That is the argument you have not managed to prove with evidence. Going round in circles about Classiche is not going to get you the credibility you seem to seek, because apples are not oranges.

    Where is your proof that the car certified as #1004 is in fact #1012, and, furthermore, where is the prof dispelling the evidenced claim by Marcel Massini that the non-certified car known as #1004 is actually #1046? As has been said before, pictures go a very long way.

    As things stand, your crusade to correct injustices seems to take a very specific side.

    Again, as I have said before - your claims may be true, but the burden is upon you to PROVE it.
     
  18. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
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    Mr. Giorgio... I'm a simple reader and don't have your knowledge, nor that of Marcel or others in this forum. But I read all the posts carefully. Really interesting, like a book by Agatha Christie. Just a guess... If this 512 S certified #1004 by FC is actually #1012, who's going to prove it ? Manfred Lampe doesn't seem to post here anymore.
     
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  19. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    Who, and how?

    Post #450 is a good example of how to begin. It also gives good clues that the path to proving that 1012 was not cut into pieces, but turned into #1004 is one that may be met with much resistance and evidence to the contrary.
     
  20. p gio

    p gio Karting

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    Mr Massini-

    I feel as though you are now attacking me, and I have not done this at all to you.
    It is now very apparent that you are extremely biased, and this seems to be a personal and sensitive topic based on how you are reacting, responding, and inserting yourself in this thread.

    You are twisting my response.
    I have NO horse in this particular race.
    However, I have been attempting to be a voice for those that do AND have had in the past. An advocate of sorts- if you please.
    That is what my mission is. To find truths in stories that may otherwise be overlooked.
    I cant be any clearer.
     
  21. p gio

    p gio Karting

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    I agree.
    It is a great story- with twists and turns. That is why I am so interested in researching it and uncovering sorted details- especially ones that seem to be so unpopular.
    That is the humongous challenge- proving it.
    That is what I am working on.
    Or at least trying to.
    The information so far is pretty compelling... but its like in the Bill Clinton scandal... no one believed Monica until she produced the dress.
     
  22. p gio

    p gio Karting

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    Peter Giorgio

    Im working on it...
    Like I said in a response to someone else just now... no one believed Monica Lewinsky until she produced the dress.
     
  23. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Clearly all you want is an audience and are trying to present one side of arguments and preventing others to do so.
    Ever heard of kangaroo courts?

    What "proof" have you provided so far? Zero. Any pix or dox? Nothing.
    It's all bla bla with zero evidence and no facts.

    I have personally inspected the car(s) in question, have dozens of dox and hundreds of pix.
    Also plenty of correspondence.
    I saw these cars racing when they were new. Others weren't even born by that time...…...

    Marcel Massini
     
  24. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #474 Marcel Massini, Feb 13, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
    Let's go back to facts and evidence, rather than continue with all the bla bla and other nonsense in some of the previous posts.

    Here's Solar Productions' ad in "Autosport" magazine dated 26 November 1970.

    The real 1004 was included and sold 10 December 1970 to Herbert Müller Racing in Switzerland.

    Marcel Massini

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  25. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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