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What happened to the suppposed 25 versions of the 512S produced ?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Kds, Jan 16, 2007.

  1. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
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    Peter Giorgio
    Then read my posts on the threads regarding the 512 cars.
    Tons of information regarding what I am explaining- citing specifics.
     
  2. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    889
    Let’s go back one second, as my comments were a general comments on historic research on cars , and not a statement on a specific case.

    And you are partly correct, one of the questions is based on which information ( not why) coming from Ferrari factory and GES, FC stated that the car sold to Francorchamps was #1004 and not 1024. Because Lampe’s car, as far as I understand , can be directly linked to the car delivered to Francorchamps under #1024.And #1012 was adopted at some point , way later, just to avoid duplication with the original #1024.
    For the same reason we should ask ourselves based on which information from the Ferrari factory, Ferrari and some others stated ( and not only Manfred Lamped) that Mr Giordano’s car was originally #1046, and not #1016 as it was known for a while and even possibly bought under this identity ( and which also seem to be another car)nor #1004.

    But I am coming back to my scientific approach even if you don’t like it. Because even if Ferrari could prove ( and I believe they can) which car originally was which, you still need to trace them through different owners / keepers/ mechanics over time to be sure this is the same item that left the factory.

    I am taking a very simple example of mixed identity. Two babies are born in the maternity ward and the nurse exchange the tags. So both have technically the correct identity but it is wrong. So you need a DNA test , in our case checking chassis and components to establish beyond the paperwork which is which. ( it happened many times as we know with Bugatti’s , someone owning two cars and switching engines and then having the paper work for one, swapping the identity. Check Bugatti’s expert Pierre Yves Laugier’s description of some famous changes of identities.)

    And finally if you want to be complete, you have to check how this happened. If you have video surveillance of the nurse putting the wrong tag you know what is the origin of the mistake. In case of cars, you need to establish the complete chain of ownership , paper trail, who was involved and who may have interfered with the identify at some point. ( and it is not going to be simple between Solar production and Herbert Muller who owned multiple cars) and some others who took care of the cars afterwards. Similarly, If you want to demonstrate that a certain car is #1012, you will have to show how this chassis - which we are told by Marcel Massini went back to the factory and never left again- was able to leave the factory ( unless it never went there) and ended up into successive hands to finish with Manfred Lampe.

    So if owners and carers are opened to this scientific and wholistic approach, and we can find the complete paper trail and witnesses , we have a better chance to figure out what is the real identity of any cars. If the process is just the one who scream the most has a chance to be heard, we will never know.

    And I make a more general comment on art and creation, as I believe Ferrari has both the moral and legal rights to their creation. It might be seen as unfair but I believe it is the way it is. If you are Picasso and you declare that a painting is not your creation, I think it is very difficult to challenge this because as a creator you have all the moral rights to your creation. I am taking this example because we know that Ferrari factory re stamped chassis for multiple reasons, ask Bryan and the Admiral on their ( ex) MD or 424( 564) that I even know better and was certified. FC will never acknowledge that they restamped a chassis even if it was 65 years ago. So they will either say we don’t know, or if a proof is brought, they will only confirm what the original car and chassis was. I guess this is the prerogative of the “ creator” even if we don’t like it.
     
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  3. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Well, I humbly feel as a non 'capable actor' that the very subject here is still not science theories but the unanswered question, whether and if so why Mr. Lampe’s car got Classiche certified as 1004, although another car with that very number exists with undisputed authenticity. This is the relevant question to be clarified for 512S history and this question is no rocket science. But yes, to use scientific methods for searching the different issues is a good approach (although not different from general scientific methods and those are always ‘wholistic’). And it seems that in this search not so Mr. Giordano’s but rather Mr. Lampe’s car is the subject of interest and needs clarification in different aspects.

    Yes, the manufacturer is the owner of the legal rights, but it is a common and a naive belief on FC that he can do whatever he wants, in particular that he can provide any certification regarding facts that lie in the past. The Holy Pope in the mid age and Ferrari today has in common, that both offered certificates for ready money. Although original and genuine documents, they sometimes did not reflect the true facts but what the paying applicant wished to have certified. However, this method cannot turn the facts neither history, but is simply a false certification. If today Ferrari certifies to a client that something had existed in period although it did not, this doesn't change anything (apart of being an incitement to false certification). Here is the very task of scientific research to openly challenge, constantly question and analyse all relevant facts, find the truth and put history straight. And to be a newbie on FC is of course no relevant qualification in that process or any scientific research …
     
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  4. Collesano

    Collesano Rookie

    Jan 14, 2017
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  5. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
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    Laguna Beach, California
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    Peter Giorgio


    The unfortunate thing is this... Ferrari was well known for their poor record keeping back then. Understandably they were more focused on designing, building and racing amazing cars. At that time, who would have imagined the cars of those eras would become as valuable as they are today.

    Because of poor record keeping, and the fact that Ferrari is now a publicly traded company, they find themselves in a bit of a predicament.

    Ferrari wants and needs to capitalize on the fact that these cars have increased in value over the years.

    One way to capitalize on these values is through the Classiche process.
    Once a car is certified, that car needs to be re-certified every couple of years in order for Ferrari to get "a piece of the pie".

    In addition to that, what I find the most compelling in all of this (esp when referring to the issue between the 512 cars #1004 and #1012 and which is which) is that FC directly refers to Manfred Lampe and "his extensive knowledge of Ferrari history and excellent record keeping" to help authenticate the cars.

    In my opinion (and I would think others would feel the same) that when it comes to the specific issue of #1004 and #1012 and which is which- Manfred had a horse in the race (a lame one, but I digress).

    IF Ferrari utilized Manfred in this specific case (I am being generous by using the word "IF")), he should NOT have had a direct hand in working with Ferrari with authenticating those 2 cars. It is a blatant conflict of interest.

    Furthermore, anyone who has skin in the game, no matter what their knowledge, background, or what have you, should bow out.
    For integrity purposes.
    It is one way to better demonstrate that authentication is genuine and not just a money making situation.
     
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  6. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
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    Peter Giorgio
    I would also like to piggy-back on something else....

    John G's car was never disputed as being #1004 when he purchased it, raced it, showed it, etc..

    The chassis was stamped #1016, and changed back to #1004 in the 1990's (this is covered in another thread).
    Those were the only tags on that car ever.

    Interestingly, all of a sudden John's car was being identified as #1046. This seemed to happen out of the clear blue sky. It never made sense. All of the records about these cars never indicated this as such, and it was always a mystery how in publications and on line this all of a sudden became so.....

    Lets bring back in "famed historian" Manfred Lampe....

    As many of you may or may not know, Manfred contributed to countless magazines, articles, and other publications regarding Ferrari history. He was a regular contributor, and referred to often based on his knowledge.

    In addition to that, he also has direct access being a "famed historian" to websites that hold Ferrari information and histories.
    Manfred had access to such sites to update, tweak, and alter information when necessary.....

    This is all fact and again very, very suspect when you have a horse in the race..........
     
  7. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Sorry for the confusion, by FC I meant FerrariChat. And of course I agree. I generally prefer less who is who and who owns what, but more what is what and what is right. And to find out how Mr. Lampe's car was certified as 1004, no special scientific methods of researching car history are necessary despite Ferrari's poor record keeping. All we have to do is collect all available information in a transparent way, critically examine it and draw a conclusion. Everything else is voodoo, especially an involvement of Mr. Lampe himself as the car's owner in this process. Such a conflict of interest would be contrary to any scientific principle (as does the Classiche certification of self restored cars). But is Classiche's certification available or was it also lost in Ferrari's poor record keeping? That could certainly help and would be highly interesting.
     
  8. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    Fair enough but who is an unbiased expert when many of the experts have skin in the game via owning cars or being agents to those that do own a car. Otherwise what you are saying is a fair point. The ultimate in provenance is to have photo documentation of every year of the cars life, to have every restoration fully documented with further photo's showing that what went into the shop was what came out and not as part of two cars either. This coupled with a clear ownership history that doesn't include any known makers of fakes is the ultimate in clear and established provenance. But how many great Ferraris or any great car have this clarity, not many. Further, how many times have we seen people suddenly posting seemingly game changing information, accusing others cars of being faked or whatever and then getting angry because they are questioned. I would say perhaps 10 - 20 truly top league Ferraris have had that treatment, whether it be I know its fake or the my xyz is the real. Hell one thread on Fchat was my Jaguar C-Type is the real one because I own the engine and in my state all cars are registered by their engine number. And the last noted was going to sue the owner of the car over it.
     
  9. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    First, it would be nice to know what exactly an expert is, but generally every car is ‘expertible’ and unbiased people available. And if - like some propose - scientific methods should be applied, no general theories and anecdotes should be further applied, but every single issue checked and proved. And again, for my humble mind, Classiche’s certification to learn more about the frame's identity would be an nice start. Why two 1004 and was Mr. Lampe's car certified and re-certified from an agent or in Maranello? Available? Or just naïve thinking?
     
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  10. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula Junior

    Sep 11, 2009
    921
    Portland, OR
    Full Name:
    Ted
    The Scientific Method, by definition, is...

    Theorizing. Testing the theory. Observing the results. And adjusting the theory as needed based on the results.

    It’s an iterative process. It’s not general theories or anecdotes that are the problem,..they are often required. It’s the failure to test/observe/adjust to work towards a better understanding that becomes the problem.
     
  11. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
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    Peter Giorgio
    Okay just to clear things up... there have never been 2 #1004. Never.

    There was only 1 #1004 chassis and John G has owned that car since 1986.

    Manfred Lampe had remnants of #1012 that he had Bob Houghton in England rebuild.
    If you know anything about Bob Houghton, he is very well known in the industry to be able to make anything you need in order to build, re-build, etc on a Ferrari. Anything and everything.
    He could turn a Volkswagen into a Ferrari.

    So Bob Houghton turned whatever Manfred had of #1012 into the car he had Classiche certified as #1004.

    The scandal is this... Manfred always knew John had #1004. He interviewed John-in his home- extensively and took many many pictures of John's #1004.
    Manfred had whatever car remnants rebuilt and went to Ferrari to present the car for Classiche.

    Manfred always knew he really had nothing, but thought to himself since he had a car that no one really owned (#1012), he would try to have it certified as that number. He is not the only person in the industry that has done things like that.

    Ferrari records of that time indicated that #1012 was destroyed in Nubrugring in 1970, so Ferrari told Manfred there was no way they could certify the car that number- #1012.

    So using his "historian status" he re-canted ALL of the history that he has written about, spoken about, and contributed to regarding #1004 (ie: John G owning it), and presented his #1012 to Ferrari Classiche again, but this time as #1004. He stole the history that belongs to John G's car in order to bring validation to whatever he had.

    Again, I will attach a very good article regarding the Classiche process. And Classiche can be done by a certified Ferrari dealer, or Maranello- right now, but these rules continually change, get altered, and what have you to meet their needs.

    Its all about who you know- especially when you get to certain levels of the game- especially when it comes to vintage cars.

    https://ferraris-online.com/ferrari-classiche-revisited/
     
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  12. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
    14,136
    #437 Marcel Massini, Feb 10, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
    May I suggest to check the factory delivery note #16655 dated 20 June 1970 to Garage Francorchamps, which was for three 512 S:
    1026 (complete car), plus two rolling chassis 1024 (really 1004! a mistake by the factory, see below) and 1036 with bodywork.
    22 June 1970 the factory invoiced Jacquers Swaters' Garage Francorchamps SA (for the aforementioned three cars).
    August 1970 frame 1004 was leased by Swaters to Steve McQueen’s movie company Solar Productions for use in the movie Le Mans, solid axles were installed front and rear, the car used as a "roller" in Scuderia Filipinetti livery with race #15, it also appeared in the movie as car #6 in its long-tail configuration (Scuderia Ferrari livery). This is the car which was used in the famous crash scene. body work and roof skin mounted to a Lola T 70 chassis which was crashed by remote control. Following the movie completion frame 1004 was sold to a French wrecking yard who re-sold it 10 December 1970 to Herbert Müller (personally, not in the name of HM Racing) in Switzerland (who then had the chassis completely stripped). In 1975 that frame was sold to Italy. In June 1979 the nude chassis (without ANY number at all) sold through Italian broker Massimo Colombo of Torino to Lampe (who traded in a Cooper Jaguar), who had it shipped to USA and then the crate with that frame was stored in Romulus (city of Metro Detroit), MI/USA (from 1979 to 1988). In November 1988 the frame and parts were shipped by Lampe back to Europe (Germany) and restoration of the car began (by Bob Houghton in the UK).

    In a letter dated 15 November 2002 from the factory SAT (Servizio Assistenza Tecnica) to Lampe it was stated that the number 1024 was an error on that delivery note #16655 of 20 June 1970 and should actually be 1004.

    Marcel Massini


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  13. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    889

    The only problem with this theory is that the factory ( and some well known historian - not ML- who confirmed it on this site ) never released the “ remnants of #1012” if they ever existed. So Bob Houghton might be able to turn a VW into a Ferrari ( in which case we should really all court him as this seem to be to be real art or alchemy,,) he may not be able to turn non existing chassis as he could not have worked on #1012 into a certifiable piece ! This is one step further, not turning something into something else, but nothing into something valuable. May be one should check what BH actually did, what he started with and look at what he received and produced rather than pretend he can have superpowers,,,,
     
  14. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    Suggest to check your EMAIL.

    Marcel Massini
     
  15. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Absolutely, theorizing is always the start, but the general theory is already set here. For testing, the available facts has to be checked now, in order to learn, why two car's exist with the same number and why Classiche certified Mr Lampe's car as 1004. Upon the results, the iteration can continue ...
     
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  16. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Thanks, any idea what chassis remnants got exactly turned into the certified frame?
     
  17. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
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    Peter Giorgio

    With all do respect, reading this is yet another blatant example of how the histories regarding these cars has been twisted and turned in an effort to confuse any outsider that may have a genuine interest in historical cars, racing histories, and significant events. It also confuses people that actually understand what I have been referring to all along....

    In doing my research regarding 512 histories- particularly focusing on the issues regarding #1004 and #1012, it is absolutely amazing how many people have readily shared knowledge, feelings, and have confirmed what I have been writing all along in these threads. Several individuals have dealt with the challenges and frustrations regarding Classiche, and some have even had the car that they knew all along to have a certain history- be given to another.

    Regardless of all of this banter, the truth will come out. It may not be today or tomorrow, but it will.

    And look, I know history will be whatever Ferrari now says it is- they would never admit a mistake- , but in this particular situation, there were several underhanded things that happened regarding #1004 and #1012 and the Ferrari Classiche certification- that is for sure. There is no questioning that.
     
  18. p gio

    p gio Karting

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    #443 p gio, Feb 10, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020

    The talk in the 1970's when Manfred used to own a 512 M (#1036) and be a part of the Ferrari Club, was that he owned "a half a chassis". Somehow, some way, Manfred acquired this "half a chassis" and he would talk about it often. He even wrote in his "historical records and ledgers" that he owned #1012. Regardless of whatever it was, he bought some kind of chassis in Europe and it is not very clear exactly what he had.
    There are pictures of what Manfred actually did have in his possession and I know they are floating out there.

    I know it has been stated several times by Mr. Massini on these threads that #1012 was destroyed, period, end... but Im not so sure.... what then did Manfred have? That is the main question. Whatever he had became #1004...

    Mr Lampe had direct access to the Classiche process and was referred to often for his record keeping regarding these cars.
    One could assert that he could have manipulated things for his own benefit.....
    That needs to be proven, but interestingly it has been talked about among car collectors of the era I am referring to, and I cannot make this up...
    Im just a writer.

    You have to remember that the people who lived through these moments are still alive. This time was only 50 years ago or less. These people lived through these races and experiences and all knew one another. It was a special club. And these people know what I am talking about- they may not be on these threads, but know what happened because they lived it.
     
  19. p gio

    p gio Karting

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    Peter Giorgio

    Oh if Bob Houghton would only talk....
    People who know of Bob Houghton and his work know exactly what he is capable of.
    When you hear a car is being done by him, especially one that is going to be Classiche certified, that could raise some red flags.
     
  20. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    My simple mind remains just mildly impressed from this story-line and may I kindly ask the following questions: Error and mistake? Who says so? Is SAT's confirmation of 2002 available or does anyone know, who exactly and based on what authority and documentation had provided in 2002 such a declaration, confirming that a certain delivery to Belgium in 1970 contained a wrong number? And what remnants got exactly shipped to Houghton and restored for certification, with the result, that two 1004 exist today? Did Maranello or instead an agent certify and - if so - re-certify the car?
     
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  21. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
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    Peter Giorgio
    Igs- I like the way you think.
     
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  22. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    romano schwabel
    and get all payed money for registartion back? ;)
     
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  23. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Some had suggested that a 'scientific approch to car history' should be applied to determine the identity of Mr. Lampe's car, others had further specified this process and Mr Massini had kindly repeated the general theory with all anecdocts. Now, all this has to be checked, tested and documented with scientific methods in order to find out, what Mr. Houghton had created may be out of nothing and how it got certified as '1004'. The above inputs are most valuable, because a 'scientific approach to car history' seems to be obviously missing at Ferrari and the industry, as this very case proves.
     
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  24. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    889
    Not just Mr Lampe’s car which has been more scrutinized than most, but any car where there is an issue about history, provenance and identity, and if 2 cars pretend to have the same identity , the second one has an issue too,,,
     
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  25. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
    14,136
    #450 Marcel Massini, Feb 13, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
    Hey "lgs":
    I have not "repeated" anything.
    I actually studied this case very carefully and inspected the (ex-Lampe) car several times personally.
    I own all the documents that I mentioned previously (and many many more).
    Just FYI what Mr Houghton "created may be out of nothing" was actually a complete frame, I have the photos. That frame had zero number, no tag at all.
    No, I will not post these pix here but the owner of the car got these photos from me as well.
    It's no "anectods".

    May I suggest to research further re the ex-Müller, ex-Grohe, ex-Scholtyssek, ex-Soprano, ex-Walker (today Giordano) 512 S and you will get answers.
    I first inspected that car in 1978 at Garage Di Cerbo in Wallisellen, near Zurich, Switzerland. At that time it belonged to German collector Bernd Grohe (resident in Montreux, Switzerland).
    Chassis #1046 is clearly a very early 512 S Berlinetta. I saw that car again on the 11th August 1979 at the Oldtimer GP at the Nürburgring (with Scholtyssek) and have photographic proof for that. In 1980 it still had the hidden door hinges and no legal roll bar (no struts from roll bar to engine). It also had no cockpit air ventilation holes in the roof. See pic below taken 16 August 1980 at the AvD Oldtimer-GP at the Nürburgring.
    Unfortunately Lampe's summary in Prancing Horse magazine #59/60 of 1980 is all wrong and has led to many many discussions. We are forty years later now with plenty of additional information and especially documents and photographs.
    Herbert Müller sold 1046 as 1016 (most probably for carnet and/or tax reasons) to Grohe (in 1978) and in 1979 the car went on to Scholtyssek who (after August 1980 and the Nürburgring Oldtimer GP) even printed a black-white postcard with the number 1016 on it (see below). That alone confirms that Scholtyssek used 1016 for his 512 S longtail Berlinetta.
    When that car later went to USA (still as 1016!) the real 1016 turned up (with Chris Cord in L.A.) and the identity (of the ex-Scholtyssek longtail Berlinetta) was (privately) changed to "1004" (today the Giordano car).

    I strongly recommend to look very carefully at these cars, especially for very small details such as door hinges, cockpit air outlets, etc.
    Not to forget the dozens of factory documents such as invoices for bits and pieces, delivery notes, correspondence, etc.

    Marcel Massini

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