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What happened to the suppposed 25 versions of the 512S produced ?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Kds, Jan 16, 2007.

  1. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
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    #401 Nembo1777, Dec 29, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2019
    And to keep talking of movies while getting back on 512S/M topic:

    An Argentine movie from 72, Piloto de pruebas, showing the 1971 GP in Buenos Aires and then that year's 1000km race with several 512's and great footage thereof. You can see Froilan Gonzalez and Fangio in the pits.

    Alas it is the race in which Ignazio Giunti perished in the factor 312PB and be warned that is shown from a distance. After that there is some local dirt road racing and at the end what looks like an Indycar or F5000 race but clearly in south America not sure what that was. No English subtitles, did not watch the whole movie, just rifled through it.



    More details here:

    http://www.imcdb.org/movie_188999-Piloto-de-pruebas.html
     
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  2. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    romano schwabel
    just watching :)
     
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  3. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
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    Peter Giorgio


    This is not #1004. This is the destroyed #1012 chassis that Manfred Lampe has re-built by Bob Houghton and re-stamped to #1004.
    Yes... this did get Ferrari Classiche certified, but Manfred knows the history and what he did.
     
  4. Jimincov

    Jimincov Karting

    Jun 9, 2012
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    James Woolley
    It’s 50 years since 1970! Does anybody know if Ferrari have any plans or there might be any meetings to mark the half century a bit like all the 917 stuff last year? Here’s hoping!
     
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  5. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    889
    with so little posts and contribution to this site, if I were you I would be more careful with statements.
    You are Not Manfred Lampe, he is an historian and has done more research on those cars that anyone else and had access to the Ferrari archives.
    So you are free to think whatever you want as any of us, but statements that other people, experts in this case, and factory did a cover up are definitely in my opinion, off limits.
     
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  6. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    Totally agree. We have seen far too many posters on various threads, all follow the pattern of having zero history on Ferrarichat, claiming they know better than any expert and offer zero evidence but scream that everything but their car is fake. Normally at this point on being challenged for a rational explanation of why they have suddenly decided to attack a car or a person, they will turn to ad hominem attacks and gaslighting rather than explain why. Will be interesting to see if P Gio follows this well trod path.
     
  7. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
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    Peter Giorgio
    So my statement has no merit because I have posted so little on this site?

    I am going to assume based on your comment that you are in the dark about the issues and parameters surrounding a few of these 512 cars, are not familiar about how Ferrari Classiche has a history of certifying the incorrect car (and has been sued), and NOTHING about me!
    And to put all of your faith into one supposed "historian"???
    There are other historians out there that know I am writing the truth.
    Manfred took a whole lot of nothing and created a whole lot of something.
    He had a destroyed and written off chassis and now all of a sudden that car became a Classiche car.
    That is some interesting stuff.
     
  8. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
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    Peter Giorgio
    The picture used is John Giordano's Ferrari 512S s/n #1004. He has owned this car since 1986 and has raced and shown it often. Beautiful and immaculate car.
     
  9. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2007
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    Mario
    While it may not be a rule that a low post number equates you to being less knowledgeable about a certain topic, it does raise suspicion and places the burden of proof almost entirely on you when you make outlandish claims - veritable as they may be.

    Do your research (if you haven't already) and you may even find out you are not simply in an enthusiast forum, but are making claims to people who own, or have owned these cars. Perhaps you already knew that - in which case it makes your recent crusade to correct information on the car you claim to be built up from chassis remains of 1012 particularly suspicious, as most people don't just decide to correct facts so adamantly out of nowhere.

    Again, this is an open forum and as long as you're not breaking rules I guess you can claim whatever you want, but a proper introduction and some degree of proof can go a long way in getting the attention you seek.
     
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  10. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
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    Peter Giorgio


    I hear what you are explaining, and it is true that in a forum such as this for me to come in as a newbie and so strong could be suspicious, however in this instance, I can assure you that what I am taking the time to write, taking the time to share, is ALL factual information, and unfortunately the public is being duped.
    As soon as someonec hears that a car becomes Classiche certified then there is nothing else to talk about... but is that absolutely true?
    I am only commenting in this forum on exactly what I know.
    There is an issue regarding the 512 cars, and authentication. Period.
    It is important to raise awareness regarding such matters rather than accepting Classiche as gospel.
    Why should a Classiche be given when it is not warranted? How does that even happen? That in itself raises suspicion.
    I know this may all sound vague, but in an effort to preserve the integrity of genuine car owners, these posts must be written.
    If you were a owner, a mechanic, or a true long time fan of one of these cars, and a bomb was dropped, what voice do you have?
    Like I have posted elsewhere, do a basic Google search...
    Where is #1012? (destroyed in 1970)
    Look at other topics on Ferrari chat about #1012.
    Look at Barchetta....
    Try and put together the puzzle of confusion that has been created and you will see that I am only sharing the truth and trying to have a voice- with complete knowledge of the individuals I have named and assertions I have written.
    That car was destroyed in 1970 and magically resurrected and Classiche certified out of nowhere.
    That is the issue.
     
  11. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Most interesting, thank you! And yes, that is the issue here and not speculations and useless theories about being a newbie with few posts.
     
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  12. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    889
    Let’s make things a little bit more simple and more serene if the different actors are capable of that.

    1. As this thread indicates, 25 cars were shown ( rather than built ) to the FIA for homologation. This is a reasonably large number for cars that raced basically only 2 seasons.
    2. Not all the chassis ended up as race cars as some cars were immediately dismantled ( same for 917 Porsche’s) as the scuderia needed spare parts. Still the chassis survived as they were manufactured and ended up somewhere except the destroyed ones ( like #1012 as confirmed by Marcel Massini who is a - if not THE Most - knowledgeable historian and not the factory nor Lampe and has zero vested interest in the case unlike some other parties.
    3. In the confusion of invoices, carnet for crossing borders, and number changes for racing that can be handy in case of accident or engine break- it is inevitable that cars have difficult to trace history and identities. And that from time to time there are identity changes, I can think of #1046/1016,,and duplicates ie cars pretending to have same identity, while in the best case only one or even may be none, may have in reality , this identity.
    4. Now the role of historians and experts is to document their research with facts , ie paper trails like archives, contracts, bill of sale, bills etc, then visual identification including inspection by those who know, and finally documented succession of ownership. Not different from establishing the history of a painting ( think Salvator Mundi)
    5. This is the scientific approach to car history. Screaming when you are the owner that your car is the real thing and the rest is piece of crap, does not move the needle. At least as far as I am concerned.




     
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  13. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    #413 merstheman, Feb 3, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
    Again, while you raise valid points you also make undue assumptions. There is plenty of examples of people here who do not buy Classiche as be-all-end-all. The same can be said about Barchetta, with the number of people there being much higher.

    Doing a google search is easy, as is doing a forum search, but why not share exactly what it is you're claiming, with proof? You (your knowledge of those involved etc) are the new variable in the equation, after all....
     
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  14. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    Totally agree, especially point #3, recently bought Colin Crabbe's book, he notes that all three 340/375GPs imported into South America were renumbered as #5 to avoid paying customs duties as #5 had already visited the continent a year or two earlier. This makes chasing paperwork for #5 a mirage and understanding their history needing far more in depth analysis than just a shrill claim of my car is #5 so it must be x, y or z. I am sure there are literally dozens of great racing Ferrari's whose history will vex even the most erudite of experts.

    Totally agree with you. Even your points about Barchetta's but in this case their coverage of #1004 and 1012 is abnormally detailed, can only have been provided by a former or current owner and worthy of close study.
     
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  15. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    Here's a photo (taken into a mirror) showing the number 1004 stamped in the gearshift housing.
    I took this photo on the 19th October 2008.

    Marcel Massini

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  16. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
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    Peter Giorgio

    Such twists and turns to confuse the general public!
    You NEVER owned #1004 or #1046 or what ever other number you want to throw in the ring.
    You only owned remnants of a destroyed chassis #1012 that you resurrected and then decided all of a sudden that it is #1004- only after Classiche would not certify a destroyed #1012.
    You know this.
    Franco Gozzi provided you feedback, corrections, and responded to your inquiries- dated: 05/28/1980.
     
  17. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
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    Peter Giorgio

    Lets make some corrections shall we?

    Citing your above information: "This one based on my records started life as N°1046."

    When you wrote to Franco Gozzi to ask for feedback, corrections, and information regarding the 512 cars- specifically their serial numbers- and received it from him on 05/28/1980, why if you were so "mistaken" about #1004 (as you share above) did you write- in your handwriting- that John Giordano purchased the car in 1986- 6 years after you received a response to your inquiry?

    Are you suggesting that Franco Gozzi- the famed historian, and right hand man to Enzo Ferrari - provided you with inaccurate information regarding #1004 in 1980???

    In addition to that, in your book to Gozzi, you wrote that #1046- "factory records indicate that this car was immediately after homologation disassembled for parts. It is quite possible that the chassis was used for the 512-S Pininfarina show car "Modulo".
    Then in YOUR handwriting you updated and wrote "Factory sheets show status as "SCC". "Modulo" claim is based on J. Pourret records and was NOT (underlined) found incorrect by the factory in 79/80."

    I will agree that it is correct that the tag on #1004 did read as #1016 in the 1990's.
    It was originally sold as #1016 and converted back to #1004 as to not duplicate (at the time) Bob Rapp's #1016.
    It was also changed back to #1004 for the historical integrity of the car and the love of authentic history. Nothing more, nothing less.
    #1004 was never any other car other than #1016- throughout ALL of its previous sales- and was stamped #1016 solely for "carnet" purposes when Mueller used to race his collection of 512 cars.

    (In addition to that, in the same book that you sent to Franco Gozzi, you typed in that you owned #1012.)

    Do we need to start adding documented photographic evidence to all of this???????
     
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  18. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
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    Peter Giorgio
    This is the authentic #1004.
     
  19. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
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    Peter Giorgio


    Furthermore, you citing that #1004 was at one time #1046 is your attempt to create a ruse in this situation.

    It makes zero sense that a perfectly good chassis such as #1004 would be stamped to #1046 and then stamped to #1016 for carnet purposes.
    #1004 was restamped to #1016 for carnet and then back to #1004 and that is all.

    However, in order to breathe life into your destroyed and written off chassis #1012, this #1004 to #1046 story needed to become plausible in order for you to all of a sudden own a piece of automotive racing history.

    Oh and #1004 was the T car in the 1970 Targa Florio. It was in a minor accident during practice, and then disassembled and used as a parts car before being rebuilt using #1008 following that tragic history.

    Last #1004 as the T car was crudely cut to make it into a spyder during the 1970 Targa Florio. Pictures from that event show the crude cuts in the roof and door line- as there are not proper windows. The authentic #1004 is the only known 512 that has rivets across the head liner area when the roof was put back into place.

    But you know all of this....
     
  20. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
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    Peter Giorgio
    That is correct- Manfred Lampe provided the confusing information on Barchetta regarding the #1004 page and #1012 page. Manfred shares on another thread on here that he is in contact w Barchetta to provide clarification regarding the cars.
     
  21. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
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    Peter Giorgio


    The authentic #1004 is owned by John Giordano.
    The timeline is a bit incorrect.
    1985- Nick Soprano (he paid the duty to have the car brought to the USA) after purchasing it from KSchol....
    1985- Nick sold to Don Walker who is also Dallas Motorsports- TX
    1986- Don Walker sold it to John Giordano
    All the while the car was stamped #1016.
    John has owned #1004 since that time.

    John's #1004 was used for parts and pieces (as those cars were interchangeable) following being used as a T car at the 1970 Targe Florio.
    #1004 was reconstructed using #1008 pieces after the tragedy.
     
  22. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula Junior

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    Ted
    A bit of perspective...maybe...

    Ferrari chat has had multiple examples of people with very many posts making VERY dubious claims. And...multiple instances where first time posters had real zingers that led to clarity where there had once been murk.

    I have no skin in this game, but I’m always interested in learning and progress. I’m not going to discount information just because it comes from a new member with few posts.
     
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  23. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    My needle is just mildly impressed by this 'scientific approach to car history', because it doesn’t really provide any usable information here, although I have to admit not being one of those 'capable actors'. Maybe less who is who but more what is what could better help, because the only relevant question here is whether and if so why Classiche had certified Mr. Lampe's car as 1004 instead of 1012 and how this creation has to be classified in 512S history.
     
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  24. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
    77
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    Peter Giorgio

    Thank you for sharing.
    I have zero motivation in this other than to bring light to a very shady and underhanded situation.
    Unfortunately, sometimes when someone is held in such regard, their actions are not questioned.
    I am here to advocate for those that do not have a voice...
    And as I have shared several times, I am only commenting on a specific car situation regarding 512 histories that I have a wealth of knowledge about.
    Not here to shed the light or stir any pot on any other matter other than 512s.
     
  25. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
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    Peter Giorgio

    Thank you for sharing this photo.

    If you know the histories of the Ferrari 512 cars, you would know full well that the gear selector boxes were NOT stamped with 4 numbers.
    The gear selector boxes were stamped with 1 number.
    For example, a gear selector may be stamped with the number "2" and that is all.
    To show a gear selector box stamped with 4 numbers in my opinion, is very very suspect.

    As the 512 cars have a history of being interchangeable with one another, the single numbered box number does not necessarily mean that it coincided with part of the chassis number. FYI.

    But the 4 numbers???? GEEZ!
     

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