What does a Marcel Massini report convey? | Page 2 | FerrariChat

What does a Marcel Massini report convey?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by 96redLT4, Mar 13, 2021.

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  1. hagen111

    hagen111 Karting

    Feb 25, 2006
    161
    Does this mean Marcel should also pay for information? To the owners, enthousiast, people in the know...who have provided some to this 'endless' information? Personally I say no, great stories are priceless anyway. But I believe charging for info comes with a bit more nuance.

    Would love to pay for Massini report when in need for one.

    However...I would think most people who would resell their Ferrari, if they received a Massini report upon purchase (from selling dealer, former owner), would include in the add the 'Massini report' and pass it on to the new (potential) buyer. I have hardly ever seen it advertised differently...especially when it comes to own interest of owners/sellers...

    So I guesstimate that 90% of owners here on Ferrari chat in someway are in breach of the terms... wow what has the world come to...

    My few cents...
     
    96redLT4 likes this.
  2. gcalex

    gcalex Formula Junior
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    Alex
    The laws and norms about copyrights and intellectual property are indeed very nuanced, and also vary by country.

    As a general rule, however, publicly distributing a copy of a protected image is not ok if you don't have the permission of the person who holds the copyright.

    *if* you have permission from the copyright owner, you can distribute the image, but then, generally, only if you mark the image as copyrighted, and list the owner's name (so that anyone else who might be tempted to distribute knows that they need to get the permission of the copyright owner).

    It sounds like Mr. Massini did not grant any such permissions, hence the issue.

    While it is true that copyrighting a fact is generally not allowed, this does not mean that all facts are disclosable in a public forum. If a fact is disclosed in a private conversation, one generally has to judge whether the discloser would be reasonable in assuming that the disclosure was made in confidence. If that assumption is reasonable, then one should not then subsequently disclose the information in public.

    I don't know what agreement language accompanies Mr. Massini's reports, but something to consider is this: if a seller had both positive and negative information about a car, would they selectively take a different position on other's rights to disclose, depending on whether the information was negative or positive? Generally, you can't have it both ways.

    Another thing to consider is whether the people involved in a car's history would necessarily want their involvement to be public knowledge. Note that there is not necessarily anything wrong with wanting to keep one's affairs private. Personally, I think basic decorum ought to preclude people from publicly posting some of the things that appear in a Massini report.
     
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  3. TTR

    TTR F1 Veteran
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    Good points Alex, but I’d like to believe, right or wrong, that any previous owner(s) sort of give up their rights for association privacy upon selling it, especially if transaction doesn’t include some kind of (perpetual ?) non-disclosure agreement.
    Therefor it is up to current owner/seller to decide whether or not they wish disclose any previous owners and/or any past incidents involving them.

    As for disclosing any (negative ?) information that may impact potential sale prospects is probably, I imagine, as old as concept of buying/selling/trading anything under the sun. Most sellers probably do not wish to focus buyers attention on anything negative and most buyers, especially anything they’re emotional/enthusiastic about, usually tend to focus only on positives*.
    My uneducated guess: Psychology 101.

    * Over the years & decades I’ve been asked to assess or perform PPIs on potential vintage car purchases for some clients & friends, but have learned that most do not want to hear reality/truth and consider me a killjoy by pointing any & all “negatives” out.
    Some have even gone as far as buying the subject vehicle anyway or another one without my “advise”, but then get upset (with me) after bringing the subject vehicle to me to fix things and I discover or point out obvious time and money consuming (major ?) problems they had chosen to ignore.
     
  4. TTR

    TTR F1 Veteran
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    OTOH and again I don’t wish to speak on behalf of Marcel, but IF the “potential” buyer/next owner is seriously concerned about the accuracy & current validity of the “Report” and its potential impact on their decision making, why not contact M.M. for the latest update or negotiate one being supplied by the seller prior to signing the final purchase agreement ? Shouldn’t this be a part of due diligence, just like third party PPI, etc ?
     
  5. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Steven Robertson
    #30 miurasv, Mar 16, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2021
    Depending on the level of research requested by Marcel and also whether he has been requested to physically inspect the vehicle, there can be a massive difference in the volume of information in a Massini Report in comparison to a Classiche Book. In addition to the researched and known history of a Ferrari after it has been sold new, the Curriculum Vitae of the car, including all of Marcel's photographs that he has in his archive are included.

    A Massini Report in comparison to a Classiche Book is more detailed regarding the technical specs. Where the Build Sheets were available there is a translation in Layman's terms of them. On a Classiche Red book of an alloy 275 GTB/4 that I looked over there was no mention of the bodywork being alloy, an important omission. The Massini Report also picked up on the speedo being in KM/H when built. The Red Book also stated that the body had not been repaired, whereas the Massini Report for the same car gave details of exact repairs to the body and identifying the panels replaced.

    Also included in the Massini Report are the identifying body numbers and checks/verifies them against those on the car, the suffixes to the chassis numbers such as 12345 GT or 0690 MDTR and the assembly numbers, checks carburettor numbers and steering box numbers against the build sheets, the glass and engravings (such as Securit stamps and dates), as well as headlights and tail lights (such as Marchal, Equilox, etc), an inspection for rust and frame damage. A Classiche Book should include these.

    Although I am a fan of Ferrari Classiche in principle, in my opinion the Classiche Report is too reliant on the information supplied by the applicant in the application paperwork and also the competence/knowledge of the Classiche Inspector which could be variable in the case of the inspection not being made at the Factory, which will be most.

    Of course a favourable Massini Report adds value to the car and a non favourable one is invaluable to a prospective purchaser who commissions the Report.
     
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  6. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Steven Robertson
  7. roma1280

    roma1280 F1 Rookie
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    Had the opportunity to work with Marcel on a car recently and words cannot express the knowledge, efficiency and insights Marcel has. As always it was a complete pleasure.
    THANK YOU Marcel.
     
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  8. Levante

    Levante Rookie

    Apr 26, 2020
    12
    And how do we reach mr Massini ? Thank you


    Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met FerrariChat
     
  9. roma1280

    roma1280 F1 Rookie
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    I would suggest a message through this forum. Go to your inbox, go to “start a new conversation” and start typing Marcel Massini and his name will appear.
     
  10. TTR

    TTR F1 Veteran
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    I’m not sure if “Levante” has privileges to PM anyone yet, seeing he/she is a new member with only 1 post so far.
    It might take 5 or 10 posts to gain such privilege ?
     
  11. Levante

    Levante Rookie

    Apr 26, 2020
    12
    Thank you for your help. I managed to get in touch with mr Massini.


    Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met FerrariChat
     
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  12. theredthings

    theredthings Rookie

    Mar 22, 2022
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    I’m fairly new to the Ferrari collecting world, how does one go about obtaining a report? I have a car I’m about to close in that claims to have had a report but the lost it. Any advice?
     
  13. roma1280

    roma1280 F1 Rookie
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    You should DM Marcel

    Go to Inbox/start a conversation and type Marcel Massimi
     
  14. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
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    I would not advance any funds for a collectible Ferrari without having the Massini report in hand.
     
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  15. TTR

    TTR F1 Veteran
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    Just ask/tell the seller get/pay for another one. Maybe even offer to cover its cost if you end up buying the car ?


    While I’ve recently sold couple without one “in hand” as they weren’t deemed necessary in these cases (although buyers obtained them afterwards), I believe in most cases a fresh/updated one can be very helpful to have on hand as a part of full disclosure when selling a car.

    I also recently looked into buying one and noticed some sellers offering quite outdated “Reports”, some even more than a decade old, during which the car might’ve had several aesthetic, technical or ownership changes in between.
     
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  16. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    The Massini Report may have been lost for a reason! ;)
     
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  17. roma1280

    roma1280 F1 Rookie
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    I’d want a Massini report for any car, I’d want it even more though if the Massini report was lost!
     
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  18. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    romano schwabel
    and where is the problem?
    you may contact him and as far as I know him he is always very helpfull
     
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  19. TTR

    TTR F1 Veteran
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    Ran into this ^^ again.
    The seller promptly/proudly sharing a copy of “M.M. Report” as a part of the sales pitch, but quick glance revealed it being nearly 10 years old with last listed entry from over 20 years ago.
    If the car was otherwise worth pursuing, perhaps a fresh, up to date “Report” be more helpful ?
     
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  20. Bowzer

    Bowzer Formula Junior

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