What about the T38

Iirc, the f5 was built privately and not as part of a military bid/competition.

 

POLITICS. Jack Northrop was destroyed by Stewart Symington in 1946-7 when he forced Northrop to destroy on the spot all of the flying wing bombers that were being built in competition with Convair, I believe. Symington wanted Northrop to be absorbed by Convair, Northrop refused so he was eliminated. Sort of the same thing with Northrop's little fighter, Not the correct politics.

 

Sean- The YF-16 and YF-18 were part of a government funded competition for a Lightweight Fighter. One morphed into the F-16 and the other into the F/A-18. L-M has said if they had known how the F-16 was going to be used (F-4 replacement, essentially), they would have designed a different aircraft. Knew the handwriting was on the wall when an early cover of Fighter Weapons Review in the late 70s showed a pen and ink of F-16s with bombs being escorted by F-15s. LWF, indeed.

USAF did fly and own F-5E/Fs. For a time, they were used as aggressor aircraft and USAF also retained F-5E/Fs for training foreign pilots of nations that purchased or were given F-5Es for their AFs. A good friend of mine was killed in an F-5 crash on a dive bomb pass near Williams AFB, AZ, when the radar nosecone detached and impacted the cockpit.

F-5s had legs like Spitfires and were not too useful to the USAF as a combat aircraft.

 

Everyone I know who has flown a T-38 loves it. Absolutely love it. I'd really like to fly one some day.

 

Don- Hopefully they sell them and do not turn them into beer cans when they are replaced. Short legs and no aerial refueling capabilty are a big disadvantage. The Thunderbirds used to have to three and four hop across the States when they were doing shows. Usually did not even have enough fuel to do an arrival show where they refueled.

 

The YF-17 did share some heritage from the F-5. Much politics, as usual, in the flyoff between these two aircraft, and par for the course Northrop lost. Then of course Northrop was forced to act as a sub to MAC when MAC turned Northrops design into the F-18. Note: I'm not picking on the F-16. A very good aircraft when not loaded down and ease of maintenance.

USAF also flew F-5's in Vietnam for a short while before giving the aircraft to the RVN AF.

In addition, originally had minimal radar and very little opportunity for growth. USAF was leaning towards bigger is better at that time.

 

I know! I used to fly a Lear 24, which has the same basic engines (no afterburner though) but is significantly larger. The 24 was always short on fuel as well, from the moment you started it up (it used as much at idle on the ground as it did at cruise at altitude).

However, the T-38 was much smaller and lighter than the 24.

 

Apologize for off-topic in advance. But I remember....



Several years ago Wifey and I flew to Las Vegas, grabbed the obligatory rental car and headed down to Laughlin. On Friday afternoon while on the river walk, ummm, about Happy Hour time, a freakin' high-performance jet began doing touch-n-gos from N to S over yonder across the Colorado River at Bullhead City Muni. That rascal finished up about his fifth pass and pointed it up into the sky like a pencil. Well the next day I had to drive over there just to see. And at the airport, not too far behind the fencing, was a NASA jet which later query on the N # proved out a T38 Talon. Now I really don't know dog about aviation, but what a show!

 

That was on topic. I can still remember two T-38s flying at about 5,000' MSL over my Oklahoma City home in the 1980s in formation. The one on the right did a PERFECT 360 aileron roll while the one on the left kept perfect formation. Just for the hell of it.

I badly wanted to be that guy.

 

NSWAC uses F-5's to simulate MiGs and Sukhoi aircraft, which is very interesting. Rewind to the testing phase of the F-15 Eagle, two F-5's consistently defeated the Eagle in dog fighting. Yet the F-5 was used to attack ground targets, when it could have out-slithered the MiG-21.

Also of note talking with an Aggressor Sq pilot about the Su-35. He said in summary, they only train for aircraft they plan to encounter, which are mostly MiG-21's and occasional 29's. Addressing the Su-35, the F-16 was mentioned for training.

 

On Friday, as I was leaving Vegas, I saw a F5 or Talon landing. It was painted darkly.

Not coming into Nellis but McCarron.

 

There are some civilian T-38s and F-5s around, plus the NASA aircraft (although theirs are painted blue and white).

I always thought the T-38 would be the ideal jet warbird. Reasonably fuel efficient, at least compared to most jet fighters, great performance, plenty of parts around... just about perfect. Much better than an L-39, IMO (but I believe a T-38 costs considerably more to buy, so the market recognizes the difference).

 

Love the T38. I see the NASA ones on a regular basis down at Johnson Space Center when Im out on the water. Cool to see them flying with a friend in formation. Also cool to know theres astronauts in there.

When the space shuttle came through a few weeks ago we went to Ellington Field(Where NASA has its planes in Houston) and they had 'em doing high speed runs up and down the run way as a bit of a send off to the shuttle.

Really good stuff.

 

T-38 assigned to Beal AFB, same tail scheme as the U2
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Reading this thread reminded me about the ATG Javelin jet, I had a stack of magazines with articles on it and I just did a quick wiki and it was cancelled! Such is Aviation

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T-38, one of the most beautiful planes ever.

At a business dinner event last year, I had the chance to chat with a retired shuttle Astronaut (who's name escapes me now) - As a mission commander, he was a pilot, and mentioned that one of the coolest and most fun parts of being in the space program was having access to the T-38's, which he claimed were a blast to fly.

Had a short chat at the Homestead air show with a pilot (call sign Feedbag, didn't get his actual name) from the NAWS aggressor squadron in Key West, who had flown an F-5 painted in Chinese desert markings in for the static display. He liked the aircraft a lot, said it was most often used to simulate a MIG 21 in combat sim, as that's the equipment many of the third-world states fly - I was really surprised at how small it was - He said it's biggest limitation was the lack of in-flight refueling capability and a fairly cramped cockpit.

 

Have to agree: the Talon is a wonderful jet to fly. As predictable as an old friend and hot as your teenage sweetheart. It flies best in a straight line, but does okay as a BFM trainer or for dissimilar air-to-air training simulating a Fishbed and other similar threats. Cockpit ergonomics are classic 50s/60s though the T-38C currently used by the USAF (and others) for pilot training has had a cockpit makeover. The cockpit is pretty roomy, actually, but I'm a -16 guy so an Eagle or Hornet dude might think it's small. The Talon is the perfect fighter trainer...it does everything fast...so when I was 22 with my hair on fire and flying the $h!t out of that plane, there were others that couldn't think fast enough to stay in front of the jet. It had high pattern speeds and could have very high landing speeds in emergencies... heavyweight no-flaps were flown over 200 KIAS on final! Trips around the radar pattern in weather for "short vectors" to a localizer approach could also be b@ll busters for student pilots... as could any published approach, really, when you're smoking around arcs at 250-300 KIAS. For this reason, it was the perfect discriminator in Pilot Training. If you could handle the "White Rocket" well, there was a pretty good chance you'd do well in any fighter the USAF would throw you into. I have nothing but the fondest memories of flying that plane around...everybody loves that plane!

Blue Skies!

Hannibal

p.s. I had many trips in -156, pic attached for your viewing pleasure!
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You can (or are allowed) to buy and fly one: thorntonaircraft.com (no affiliation). Have dollar, can travel!

Blue Skies,

Hannibal

 

No, there are a few. I don't think the government has made any special efforts to keep T-38s out of circulation as opposed to any other jet fighter. I think it's more that they haven't surplused as many, so there simply are not a lot of them available to buy.

There seem to be more F-5s around in private hands, but those are less desirable because it's always more fun to be able to take a passenger if you want.