Anyone have a write up of a water pump remove and replace? Or know a good f-chat thread? My car is a 1978 308 GTS. Did not find anything comprehensive from my search. I do have one from the 308 GTB Register. I know my thermostat isn't working properly as this is the second year now in cool weather I can tell it's sticking. So, I will be replacing the thermostat. But, I only have "informal" records regarding the water pump from the previous owner who is an f-chatter. And trusting those records then the water pump has not been replaced in at least seven years. When I did my major a couple years ago I did not do the water pump as the car has had very regular usage and I saw no signs of leaking. However, seems like now would be a good time to give it attention while I'm "in there". I am not planning to overhaul it myself but thought the Flying Dutchman rebuild the best route.
As a matter-of-fact; I was just going to do mine. The engine is out, and it looks like at best, it simply needs to be cleaned-up before I do the rest of the motor. So it won't be an in-the-vehicle process, but at least this might give you an idea of what your looking at.
I have meant to write mine up from a couple months ago. It's a really easy DIY job. How soon are you doing this? I'm happy to share pics and knowledge while I'm getting my s*@T together with this write up. JIM
I took the wimps way out and followed a single step.... Call dial 1-800-Dave-Helms..... He rebuilt while my belts/tensioners were being done, and I am very glad that he did. Apparently, bearing size was an issue relating to my H2O pump bearing. Dave (Scuderia Rampante) rebuilt on the larger bearing platform/housing, and re worked for fit. QUITE A DIFFERENCE. The car should be good to go now. Its a '77 B Just make sure what size your pump bearing is before expending the effort/$$. J. Image Unavailable, Please Login
I haven't seen a thread specifically on replacing the water pump, but have a look at the Birdman's timing belt replacement doc http://birdmanferrari.com/service/timing_belt/timing_belt_procedure.htm . You'll need to do most of work to get to the water pump. You say that you know the t-stat needs to be replaced but do you know that your water pump needs to be rebuilt/replaced? Is is leaking or are the bearings failing? I know it's tempting to just get in there and service everything at once but it's far easier and less invasive to replace the t-stat than the entire water pump. On carb cars, you need to partially drain the coolant, remove the a/c pump and both timing belt covers to remove the water pump. To replace the t-stat, all you need to is partially drain the coolant, remove the air cleaner and remove the t-stat housing. Unless you feel like doing a lot of extra work right now, I'd just replace the t-stat and save the water pump service for your next timing belt service.
You read between my lines. If it ain't broke don't fix it. There are a few posts here about people dealing with stuck pumps and stripped studs. I did the water pump on my old Rx-7 last winter no problem. The thermostat is most definitely sticking as in cold weather it takes effort to reach 195. On a carb car you have to remove the airbox to do anything in this region of the engine. And that airbox is quite an ordeal, though not hard. So, having gone that far and I figured after three years might as well do all the coolant too. Sort of a in for a penny in for a pound kind of thinking.
Thanks, Jim. If you can share anything that would be great!!! Of course now I'm thinking I need to do the local Ferrari friends meeting Saturday morning here in my environs so probably won't start this job until mid November or so.
Oh don't I know it. We have the same year car and I can't remember how many times I've had to remove that darned air cleaner in the past 12 months! I guess my point was that an R&R on the water pump is about 3x more work than doing just the t-stat and coolant change. If it's been a few years since your last major, maybe it's time for a timing belt change anyhow and you can do all the work at once.
The water pump on the '78 308 is relatively easy. The biggest problem is that you must remove the timing belt covers to get to the water pump bolts. Ferrari fixed this on later models. But on the early carbed cars, you had to remove the covers. So basically, without going through all of the obvious things, it goes like this. [Before you start, get the needed gaskets, O-ring and new thermostat. If you are buying a new pump, get it in advance. If you are having the old one rebuilt, you'll send it out once you have it removed.] 1. Get the car up in the air (jack stands or lift). 2. Remove the right rear wheel and wheel well liner. 3. Drain the cooling system. Remove the AC/Alternator and water pump belts. 4. Remove the coolant hose on the front of the water pump and push the metal coolant tube down and out of the way. If needed, loosen the clamp at the other end of the coolant tube (down near the fire wall and front header -- CAREFUL... Don't confuse the coolant tube with the fuel tank cross-over hose or you will have a VERY, VERY BAD DAY!!). 5. Remove the front timing cover. Be sure to support the AC compressor and lines while you are doing this. You may have to swing the compressor out of the way to get the cover off. 6. Loosen the clamps on the coolant hoses above the water pump, running to the thermostat housing. 7. Unbolt the water pump. It comes off as a unit, with the thermostat housing. 8. Send out the water pump for rebuild, unless you bought a new one, in which case send the old one back for the refund on the core charge. 9. Clean up all the mating surfaces. 10. Open up the thermostat housing, clean it up, change the thermostat and install the new gasket. Be sure to install the new thermostat with the bleed hole at the 12 o'clock position. 11. When the pump is ready, start the reassembly. Remember to install the new O-ring in the back of the water pump housing. I dress the gaskets with Hylomar, but you can use your favorite gasket dressing. 12. Depending on when you last changed the hoses, you may want to change the hoses on the top of the engine and from the water pump to the coolant pipe. If you are really ambitious, while the system is drained, change all of the coolant hoses, front and rear. 13. Once you have the hoses and water pump assembly back in place, tighten the bolts/nuts to spec. Make sure (double check) that all of your hose clamps have been tightened. 14. Replace the timing covers. Replace the AC bracket and compressor. Reinstall the belts and tension them properly. 15. Refill and bleed the coolant system per the shop manual with 50/50 Prestone (green) anti-freeze and distilled water, with one bottle of Red Line Water Wetter added, for good measure. 16. If possible, start the car while still on the stands and with wheel well liner out so you can check for leaks. 17. Assuming everything is good to go, put the liner back in, reinstall the wheel and take her for a nice ride, make sure that the water temp settles in as it should. I know I left out a lot of little steps, and probably forgot something major, but that's basically it. It's pretty straightforward. Yeah, you can do a whole lot of other stuff while you are in there, but you really don't need to. Hope that helps. Steve
Oh yeah, forgot the bit about removing the air filter housing. Yes, it is a PITA. Be very, very, very careful about removing the air filter box, as there are those little brass spacers. If one of those falls into the carbs, you won't be a happy camper. Remember, none of this is difficult. It can just be a little time consuming and you need to pay attention to what you are doing.
There are four 14mm nuts that secure the water-pump housing to the block, and three 13mm nuts that fix the water-pump to the housing. The first two pictures indicate the 14mm nuts in red arrows and the 13mm nuts in green arrows. The next picture shows how the entire unit slips off the block. Following that are two pictures of where the water out/in channel goes from the block to the water-pump housing. You'll want to clean-off any leftover RTV from the block, and check (or replace) the O-ring (indicated by a red arrow) on the housing. Next, remove the three 10mm nuts to gain access to the thermostat which is easily removed "after" you remove the gasket. After that, the water-pump is removed from the housing by removing the three 10mm nuts that hold it in place. I did not do that part, since my ambition was to simply clean-up the whole unit and not replace the water-pump. So, I know this isn't the whole procedure. But hopefully it's enough to get you started. Cheers! Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
This indeed was very cool with David's pictures and Steve's step-by-step. Into it deep now and all went very well taking things apart. One step I seem to have to add to every job is removing the bonnet. Maybe not necessary but WOW does it help with light and access. I was concerned about separating the housing from the block after some posts here but mine came right off. The thermostat housing was a bit stubborn but a little Kroil around the studs and seams and a few minutes later it came right apart. My thermostat bleed hole was at 7 o'clock . A few probably dumb questions: 1) I went with the Wahler/Behr style replacement thermostat. It comes with an o-ring whereas the original has a gasket that attaches to the thermostat. Re-using the old gasket seems very bad so I should install the new thermostat with the o-ring on top, right? 2) The use of hylomar is only on the paper/fabric gaskets, right? (And a thin film I would presume.) If anyone is curious about the thermostat debate this link should dump you into the middle of it: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=198006&highlight=thermostat&page=3
There's a post somewhere by Brian Crall (Rifledriver) as to what the correct torque specs are when you bolt the thing back on. He also said that if you don't do that right you can have problems down track, In fact see: See http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=138107579&postcount=12 Torque settings: 8mm is 2.5 kgm 6mm is 0.9 kgm
Bump. Bumped but not in a hurry in no way imaginable. My water pump is on a slow boat to Oregon . But I am curious if anyone is looking at this who installed the Wahler/Behr thermostat just to confirm your installation went fine using the o-ring instead of what I would call a 'gasket'?
There would be danger of not being able to bleed air. Orienting at 12 o'clock places the hole where it is likely to be of value in getting air out. I read in another thread some people go as far as to drill two or three holes equally spaced. I noticed this new thermostat I have has an indentation for where to drill the hole.
Kevin, I can't comment on the thermostat, as I used the "stock" version when I did mine. But with the Hylomar, yes a very thin coating on the paper gaskets is what you need. Make sure you have a nice new O-ring installed and properly seated for the mating surface between the water pump housing and the block. Otherwise, things should go together very easily. p.s. Take the opportunity to change any hoses that you disturbed, and buy new clamps. Just a rule of thumb I've always followed, unless you are certain that your hose is relatively new and in excellent condition. You are there anyway, so why not replace them? Just my $.02.
p.p.s. How about posting a couple of pictures of the old and new thermostats, so we can see what you are talking about?
Here is the thermostat I found installed. It has what seems more like a gasket that the lip of the thermostat sits in. Image Unavailable, Please Login Below is the new Wahler thermostat that came with an o-ring. Image Unavailable, Please Login Here is the Wahler thermostat installed in the housing. Image Unavailable, Please Login And finally was looking for confirmation that the Wahler with its o-ring on top should work fine as a replacement thermostat. Image Unavailable, Please Login
I installed the Wahler that I show in this post: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=138752875&postcount=44 Back in spring of 2009 and it has been perfect. A huge search was done to find the "right" replacement thermostat for the 308. I even called Behr Italia in Italy. I spend several weeks on this project, bought a half dozen prospective thermostats, compared them to the OEM Savara that came out of my car--and the Wahler was the absolute best, closest replacement I found. And it's $15. You can read the entire thread above if you care for the background info. Jonathan
I stopped by my local parts shop today and was informed that the Wahler 056 121 113F is a 92 degrees Celsius (197.6 degrees Fahrenheit) thermostat. The standard is a 180 degree Fahrenheit.
Thanks for everyone's help. I installed Wahler 056 121 113 A which I understand to be the correct thermostat for the 308. Different part number than what you were told. I don't have a lot of miles on it yet but so far so good. At least it is heating up to what looks like normal operating temperature (about 180) even in cold weather.
