Vintage section Fake/Replica/Recreation/Rebody discussion

Marcel

Roland's "F40 LM" which is a total replica F40 LM was not only on the lawn at Cavallino and Judged there was a photo of it in the local paper of it on the lawn on Sunday after the event, and I believe that it also won a prize.

 

In days gone by motor companies made chassis's and the customer sent them away to a coachbuilder of their choice to be bodied, in a style of their liking. When the cars changed hands they were often rebodied to reflect the new customers requirement, or to update to the latest style or fashion.

They always retained their chassis manufacturer as their product/identity.

Surely this is history repeating?

Take a look at the Pebble Beach winning pre-war cars. 99% are not the original body, but a recreation (under the word "restoration"). Yet no-one complains.

 

I doubt that the local newspaper has any idea what it is or not.
And as you say it was "on the lawn on Sunday AFTER the event".
AFAIK that particular F40 was judged as a CONVERSION and certainly not as a real, genuine and authentic Michelotto (factory) built F40 LM, one of the original batch. Naturally I may be wrong as this is from memory only.
Jim, we both know that YOU don't like that particular concours. You have your reasons.
The owner and founder of that event is free to make his own choice. And he did.

Marcel Massini

 

Marcel, I appreciate your sentiments on the subject but I also believe you are setting the bar a little too high for us, mere mortals. Again, only speaking on behalf of myself, I simply don´t have the time nor the finances to embark on the "journey to Ferrari knowledge" like you are describing. I wish I was, but I have a fulltime job (which has nothing to do with Ferrari´s) and a family. Of course I do visit events and exhibitions, but there is a limit to (A) my time and finances, (B) my access to the experts (not counting via Ferrarichat) and C my knowledge of where to look.

Of course, no one said educating yourself on vintage Ferrari´s is easy, nor should it be easy, but the subject is so incredibly broad, there needs to be an easy to access startingpoint. For me that is my collection of handbuilt 1/43 modelcars. Everytime I buy a model, I want to know everything about it´s history and like I said, my search consists of books, magazines and internet. And in that respect, Ferrarichat provides in that ´easy to access startingpoint´. It was, for instance, through Ferrarichat that I got information on s/n 2735GT directly from the current owner. I can not get that anywhere else. I am sure you can, but I can´t being the mere mortal that I am

 

How should we judge the rebody of s/n 0038M from a barchetta Touring Superleggera body, to a berlinetta Vignale body and back again to a (replica?) barchetta Touring Superleggera body?

 

Disagree. MANY complain! But as we all know there comes a moment when you have to decide if you can actually save a piece of metal or panel or if you really have to replace it. A car is original only once.

Marcel Massini

 

I would oppose to that. Even if it turns out to be a replica the thread will contain valuable information because the replica has been outed. If threads get deleted this information is lost. We should continue to put up these 'wanted posters'. They're ugly but nessecary.

I agree with Tom that it's very difficult to draw the line. Potential legal issues are very much possible. Should we remove the 250 Monza posts, just because there seem to be two cars alive claiming the same chassis number? Who is to decide which one is a replica, if at all? Maybe Ferrari screwed up. It's certainly not the F-Chat community who decides so I vote for keeping these threads in Vintage, GTO replicas included.

Maybe Rob can develop an ignore button for the word "replica"...

 

Well only if the replica-aspect is or was subject of discussion. If the car is known as a replica (for instance because builder/owner openly states to that fact) than I don´t see why that car should be subject of a thread in the Vintage-section.

Allthough I am still not sure about replicas based on genuine Ferrari chassis´ and drivetrains.

Where should the Thomassina´s be discussed?

 

The Vignale Coupé body on 0038 M was genuine. It was done in period. The later rebody back into "Touring Barchetta" is a rebody and you can easily call it a replica of a Touring Barchetta.
This is a similar case as with 0238 A (look at that other thread "Ferrari built from 12 photos"), where a new "old Vignale Spider body" was built (back to Vignale Spider configuration) and the period Vignale Coupé body (2nd body on chassis 0238 A) was removed. A rebody will always remain a rebody.

Marcel Massini

 

I'm sorry I find this comment confusing.

I think the vast majority of posters here can identify a shabby Datsun based replica that has no business here. When it comes to a rebody of a 250 GTE etc into something else that can be less easy.

For example I took this picture at the Concours London at the Hurlingham club last summer. While I consider myself pretty good at identifying old Ferraris (they've been part of my life since I was 1 years old) I can struggle to always spot the nuances that identify this as a real 250TDF or one that has been built up on a GTE or chassis.

Are you saying that rather than post this picture here on the vintage section where someone usually can pretty quickly tell me the answer to the question I should spend far longer going round the rest of the internet trying to find, what will probably turn out to be the wrong answer.

For the record I don't know if this is an original TDF or a rebody.
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But could that car in it´s current outfit be discussed in the Vintage-section?

This doesn´t differ much from a GTE with the original body thrown off to make room for a replica GTO-body.

Allthough I believe the Vignale-body is still intact.

 

Then good night! It will be a matter of hours, days or weeks until the true enthusiasts, connaisseurs, experts and very knowledgeable contributors here on ferrarichat will walk away and the vintage section will be INUNDATED with replica stuff.................Once again: Julio Batista, the original poster, was absolutely right (I am not talking about the language). I had exactly the same feeling when I opened up fchat and couldn't believe what I saw. The vintage section (which is my favorite one) with more and more replica threads!! I really don't want that. Surely there is room for these guys but not in that section. Julio is a hero, thank you for the provocation, thank you for alarming us, it was MUCH NEEDED. Just look at the numbers of posts within very few hours.

Marcel Massini

 

Well, Matthew, this gives me the impression that you are under enormeous time pressure and don't really want to spend a little more time to search deeper and longer to find out............searching and digging takes a lot of time but can be very rewarding. We live in a world where everything has to come "instant", nobody wants to go the extra mile any more.

Marcel Massini

 

With all this hue and cry about fakey-dos does anyone see any irony in that the folks who enable these situations and in some cases actually make them are not held accountable? I've seen Marcel say nice things about Tom S and he has chopped up over 50 GTE's, 330's and some PF coupe's. Hell Greg J who makes repros from real Ferrari's is a concorse judge! And actually so is Tom S., and not for small events but for FCA shows! Now both these guys also do good things for the Ferrari community but the fact is that they view many of these cars as a commodity. And of course there are the European shops that feel and act the same way but nobody seems to make the people who actually make these things an issue.

 

To make one thing very clear:
Both Thomas W. Shaughnessy as well as Greg S. Jones are friends. I have known both of them for a long time. Yes, both may have chopped up Ferraris and may still do. But that doesn't mean that I condemn then. It also does not mean that I agree with what they are doing. But they continue to be friends. This is a totally separate thing. The subject of THIS thread here was about replicas in the vintage OR IN ANOTHER section of ferrarichat. Oh, btw, both Tom and Greg are always full disclosure and NOT pretending or hiding anything. Yes, both are concours judges and very knowledgeable and experienced, and both are on fchat.

Marcel Massini

 

Marcel, you don't condemn chopping up Ferraris, you just condemn talking about chopped up Ferraris in the vintage section? I must admit that is confusing to me.

 

+1. The vintage section ideally would be for research & discussion of Ferrari factory cars. Certainly we can find an alternative place for the marketing & sales of fake cars or their parts.

 

I do condemn chopping up old Ferraris. But not the people who do that. Who am I to do that? I understand what we are talking here is IN WHICH AREA or SECTION of ferrarichat the replica stuff should be discussed. My personal opinion is that it should not be in the vintage section but somewhere else.

Marcel Massini

 

THAT is EXACTLY what we should find.

Marcel Massini

 

Sorry if I was unclear Saturday to Sunday.

Roland's replica F40 LM was on the concours lawn at Cavallino on Saturday. The Photo of it on the lawn on Saturday was on the front page of the Sunday edition of the Palm Beach Post.

Roland's replica F40 LM was judged and won a prize. The replica 275 GTB NART was also on the lawn and I think it's fair to say that there are many who see a car on the lawn at Cavallino and believe it must be real as opposed to a replica and that's why I feel that threads in Vintage that discuss what these cars are and what they're not are important in preventing Ferrari History from becoming Ferrari Fantasy.

You are right that I have little respect for Cavallino and this has been clear public record for years:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=280241

I appreciate you saying that I have my reasons.

The same holds true for the 330 Can Am that was at the FOS fitted with a replica 412P body which signage next to it identifying it as a "P3" which of course it isn't. The 250 "Testa Rossa" with a hard top at the FOS that you outed is another example and both of these cars were discussed in threads in Vintage which I feel is good.

Hope You are Well

Best!

 

Yale as one of the best writers I know I beg you to read this section more closely it is a debate about where these threads go NOT about the friendships, destiny or status in eternity of those that create or enable these abominations I believe these discussions ABSOLUTELY DO NOT BELONG HERE AND FURTHER LEGITIMIZE THEM M

 

Well where to start. I agree with Rob in that your handling of this situation and anger are completely distasteful and defamatory towards us! You go on to speak about how we sponsor the vintage section but we are "destructors" of Ferraris. If you read through our post on the 250 GTO reproduction, you would know that we did not build the repro. and therefore, have not destroyed anything. The level of vehicles that we deal with and Ferraris that we have returned to greatness through the years are immeasurable

This repro. came to us from a client and the only reason we agreed to help him sell the vehicle is due to the history and uniqueness of the vehicle. We would never destroy a Ferrari to build a replica in our shop. This repro. at no time was misrepresented for anything other than what it is and we have been very open about it!

As also stated, we have a subforum in which we post our stock, we do not post it in the actual Vintage section, but our subforum of the vintage section. We can not control if it automatically posts into the actual Vintage section as well.

If you do not feel the $900,000 is appropriate, thank you for your thoughts and opinion, but you do not have to purchase it. We have been through this discussion countless times about people agreeing with or disagreeing with reproductions so your hatred towards them is nothing new or surprising. What is surprising is your personal attack on us, our business, and out reputation without knowing much about us.

In closing, if you do not like what you see in our subforum, don't visit it. If you don't like the title in the Vintage section that posts from our subforum, don't click on it. If you find the need to try and discredit us and our business and make defamatory comments, I would caution you to think about it logically before posting it in a public forum because ultimately it just makes you look bad. If you check around on the internet, you will find many reputable dealers who are also currently offering reproductions.

We will continue to offer quality vehicles, not only Ferraris and will post them in our subforum. We have had a very good response from the users of Ferrarichat who enjoy seeing not only Ferraris but alot of other rare and quality vehicles and with the exception of this case, have all been class acts!

 

Your right my time is precious so why would I not want to go to what I consider the best place to start find the answer to my question (which at the end of the day is hardly life changing)? If I was unsure which section to post in or that I was going to be berated for asking the question in the wrong place, I probably wouldn't bother which when repeated by lots of people is I'm pretty sure not what Rob wants in his business model for this site.

Your also right research takes a lot of time and is rewarding, I helped my Dad put together a history database on 3605GT (I suspect your records will tell you who my Dad is). When he sold it the broker acting for the buyer said he had never seen a more comphrehensive history file on a classic Ferrari.

 

I would also support the idea of a Replica forum under Other Cars or somewhere that would serve as a resources to others and NOT in the vintage section. I also wonder how a vintage sub forum can be an inventory listing of a sponsor? IMO, sub forums should be exactly that, not a place to buy a corvette or any other car. Something is wrong with this and further dilutive of the intent of the Vintage Section specifically and FerrariChat in general. The brand position of FerrariChat are Ferraris and additions to the site or changes to forum should support and defend the core of the brand (FerrariChat). It diminishes the site for the sub forum to be a general automotive inventory listing because threads will start on non-Ferrari automobiles, which isn't a relevant adjacency to strengthen FerrariChat. Can the inventory section be moved?

 

Matthew

I personally know your father (met him several times both here in Switzerland as well as in the UK), as well as the broker.

Marcel Massini