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Vintage section Fake/Replica/Recreation/Rebody discussion

Discussion in 'Recreations & Non-Period Rebodies' started by Julio Batista, Feb 9, 2012.

  1. 365GTC/4

    365GTC/4 Formula 3

    Apr 7, 2005
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    John
    Yale. I think that is the crux of the divide. Some like the badge others love the car.
     
  2. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    What about the Mercedes replicas somebody on this site makes ... ?

    But yes I agree. Any Ferrari that is replicated using an old Ferrari as the basis should be destroyed and the parts used to sell to genuine car owners as replacement parts. This would immediately kill the market for this horrible process.

    But if somebody makes a 250LM (for example) using an Alfa Romeo v6 power plant and a Porsche gearbox and their own chassis ... then no old Ferrari has suffered, and thus as long as it does not wear Ferrari badges all good.
    Pete
     
  3. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

    Dec 11, 2006
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    Still the number one thread in Vintage!!
     
  4. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Ditto.
     
  5. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    Peter den Biggelaar
    Not according to Mercedes. If the body replicates a Mercedes it will be destroyed. You can keep the chassis though :)
     
  6. ggjjr

    ggjjr Formula Junior

    Nov 11, 2003
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    George
    There are so many things wrong with your post I won't take the time to answer them. Bryan did that in a way that was much more polite than I would have.

    George
     
  7. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
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    george burgess
    Tut Tut Tut. You seem to be letting someone get to you.Please go to the "official replica....." thread post 1823. "Screwy" statements don't get us anywhere. just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
  8. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    Please do answer. Just be polite about it. There are no winners or losers.just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
  9. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    You're the one who has still not answered:


    "Why have the Name Ferrari on your car at all when it's a pure reproduction?"
     
  10. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
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    george burgess
    This person must have quite a shop and exceptiomal skills. I agree his efforts are totally misguided. Maybe he should finish the car off with three different badges and call it at Poralffer. Remember the "Pooper"! just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
  11. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Pete
    Why would his efforts be misguided?

    The Alfa engine could easily have the same hp, sounds good and again no replica is REAL, even if Ferrari parts are used it is no longer original and IMO worthy of being called a Ferrari ... even though if an existing chassis is used it can be registered as one. Should be registered as a replica or special IMO.

    If I was going to make a Ferrari replica I would go down this path ... at least I could sleep with a clearer conscience. I'm an Alfisti first and foremost though.

    I also would like you to answer Jim's question.
    Pete
     
  12. JCR

    JCR F1 Veteran
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    Mar 14, 2005
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    H-Town, Tejas
  13. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    george burgess
    The script on this lable is clearly not correct Ferrari. Secondly the script above reads California Special also not a title ever used on a real Ferrari. Happy now?? Probably not but that's perfectly OK by me. just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
  14. ggjjr

    ggjjr Formula Junior

    Nov 11, 2003
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    George
    There are losers. The whole car community loses when a car like the 250GTE is chopped up to make it something it is not for someone's vanity.

    George
     
  15. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    george burgess
    My car is registered as a 1967 Ford Mustang and described as a "replicar" by the State of Massachusetts. I have clearly answered Jims question in another thread. I don't really think I will ever change his mind which is fine. Let's hope we can both agre to disagre. Finally I agree no replica or reproduction should ever be thought of as a the real thing. By the way I am afraid the "path" you have selected might raise the hairs on the back of the necks of some Alfa purists. just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
  16. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    That's fine. Just be sure to put flowers on the graves of the GTEs rotting away in the junk yards. just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
  17. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    george burgess
    Having looked thru this thread this appears to be an extraudinary effort by a very gifted technican. For those who are concerned about original parts being resurected for use in a replica please read post #60. The account of the rebirth of an original 300SL engine says alot. Lets hope the final product somewhere prominently displays something clearly indicating exactly what the car is. The fact that he has issued a thread showing so much detail of the building is a credit to him. just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
  18. Pass

    Pass F1 Veteran
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    Feb 29, 2008
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    It is an interesting and somewhat disturbing news article.. I have some degree of concern and do not want to get tangled into a lawsuit or a siezure situation at worst. I have spoken with the head of the Mercedes Benz Classic Center in Fellbach and he assured me
    (Mr. Michael Bock) that in my case they would not pursue that avenue. However; a inpromptu converstion in the hallway at Pebble Beach Lodge last August isnt written proof they wont come after my project. I do think the difference with my project is it is made up of a majority of period correct and or genuine Mercedes Benz Factory made parts including several items that are Genuine W194 pieces. I am assembling genuine Mercedes W186, W187, W188 and W194 parts in a new configuration... I also have faithfully utilized the exact methods and techniques of assembly of the missing car. It is an exact "tool room copy" that I nor anyone else including the factory could easilly duplicate. My hope is give the Classic Center the opportunity to aquire my project for the Factory Museum.
     
  19. MSPV12

    MSPV12 Karting

    Jun 18, 2008
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    Mark
  20. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Pete
    Plus the original of the car you are recreating no longer exists. Gee it is a complex situation, but my focus is the destructions of rare old and historic cars to make replicas. This is not the case here I believe.

    In regards to my comment about using a fairly modern Alfa Romeo engine and equally modern Porsche gearbox for a replica ... well yes Alfa Romeo have stopped making that particular v6 engine (in fact any engine I believe) but the engine was used right up to very recent with the 156 v6. Thus we are talking about modern cars here ... not rare old cars that have already well and truly reached classic if not historic status.

    And tongascrew, I believe Jim's point was all about whether you were attempting to pretend your car is in anyway real. I'd in some ways like to make that 250LM replica but in the end I think I would always be left unsatisfied that it is not real. Even if I used a real Ferrari engine and found a LM gearbox somewhere it would still not be real so everybody has lost in that situation. Even the engine and gearbox as they really should be pushing the real thing!. I think I'd feel far better about myself as a classic car enthusiast to instead purchase a 308GT4 or another Alfa Romeo such as a 60's Guilia, or heck just be happy with the 105 series GTV that I currently have.
    Pete
    BTW: I have built a kit car, that I used as a club race car because NZ back then (and hopefully today) had some good race series for these sorts of cars. My car though did not remotely try and replicate any thing else, it was based on a Sylvia Striker Mk4. To me it was just a spaceframe race car. I bought the kit because it looked fairly aerodynamic and thus a good place to start. I modified the design considerably and had a lot of good races with that car.
     
  21. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    I appreciate your comments. I did own a 328GTS in Italy for several years. The arrival of the Euro finally priced me out of that adventure. I did consider buying a 328 here in the U.S. However I really wanted the experience of being involved in at least a good part of the building of a reproduction of a car I could never afford. It was over a three year project. My wife did the interior which really came out well for which she gets constant credit. My effort doesn't compare with this 300SL project but I do enjoy having the car in the driveway and on the road. just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
  22. tritone

    tritone F1 Rookie
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  23. thepinkumbrella

    thepinkumbrella F1 Veteran

    Feb 26, 2006
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    Paul Harris
    An interesting article on a case that has rumbled on in the UK regarding the sale of a vintage Bentley...

    "The following is a brief summary of the points of importance to the classic car business;

    A description of the car as “a 1930 Bentley Speed Six” without more does not imply that it is an original Speed Six or that it has any type of history, let alone a continuous history.
    If a Buyer requires originality and a continuous history he has to negotiate for it and pay for it.
    The identity of a car is to be determined by reference to the custom in the classic car trade. It may be derived from a part of the chassis with the original chassis number attached to it.
    The description of a car as a particular type or model may be an expression of opinion rather than a statement of fact, and this is more likely the older the car and the less original it is. The importance of this is that if the opinion is reasonable it is most unlikely that any claim can be made against the dealer or private individual who gave the description.
    The engine of a car is not necessarily relevant to its description. A Speed Six Bentley may remain a Speed Six Bentley even if it does not have a Speed Six engine.
    The price paid for a car is highly relevant to how much originality and history a buyer can expect; The Court of Appeal said:
    Proof of provenance or of history has to be negotiated for. It does not come for free and is not inherent in an article’s description.

    If a Buyer wants to negotiate for knowledge about “its performance during its active racing lifetime” (if any) then he must stipulate for it."

    http://www.wilmotslitigation.com/news

    Paul
     
  24. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    george burgess
    So how does this apply to this thread. Let's go back to my post #780. The description of this Bentley would put it in the "replica" category.To be listed as a "replica" the doccumentation accompanying the car would need to clearly list the history and details of the restoration of the car to qualify it as a "replica" The key to this is in paragraph 4 and specificly the "expression of opinion" What opinion and by whome? By having an official and generally accepted "replica" designation with the necessary doccuments would have avoided much of the problems with this transaction. Also by having the documentation out there it would have been reviewed and discussed openly. Unlike paragraph #2 no real negotiations or or payment would be necessary as the "replica doccumentation" would come with the car. just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
  25. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2008
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    Am I missing something or is it now the assumption that the car is unauthentic unless stipulated otherwise?
     

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