Vintage section Fake/Replica/Recreation/Rebody discussion | Page 32 | FerrariChat

Vintage section Fake/Replica/Recreation/Rebody discussion

Discussion in 'Recreations & Non-Period Rebodies' started by Julio Batista, Feb 9, 2012.

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  1. 250P

    250P Formula Junior

    Aug 8, 2011
    755
    London, England
    Full Name:
    Alex
    Great show!
     
  2. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie

    Aug 13, 2002
    3,799
    Santa Fe, NM
    from this article.

    Not merely content with getting the illegal rep destroyed, [Daimler AG] has issued a statement to the press, saying, "The body shape of the legendary Gullwing model has been trademarked by Daimler AG. Anyone building, offering or selling replicas of the vehicle is in breach of the Company's rights. This even applies if the replicas do not incorporate any logos or trademarks of the Company. Daimler AG has long taken a tough approach to vehicle replicas.

    "As a work of applied art, the body of the 300 SL has been under copyright protection for a number of decades. The employees who designed the famous gullwing model in the 1950s granted Daimler AG comprehensive exploitation rights. The body shape has also been trademarked by Daimler AG, as recently confirmed by the Stuttgart regional court (case no. 17 O 304/10, final and binding judgment dated 9 December 2010, following withdrawal of an appeal)."
     
  3. Pass

    Pass F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 29, 2008
    12,439
    Salida Colorado
    Full Name:
    Mark Passarelli
    Mercedes has been after these guys for a while. This company was purchased from the California Gullwing maker Tony Ostermeyer. Notice they didnt crush the chassis because the chassis didnt incorporate any original ARTISTIC design and is based upon their 300E W124 platform.. Interesting that they can copyright a shape because it technically is a design to increase aerodynamic efficiency and is considered by the courts here in the US as utilitarian in nature and cannot be protected by copywrite. The next thing Mercedes should go after every automaker in the world that sells a similar shaped sedan as we all know today's cars are hard to differetiate without see a logo.
     
  4. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
    tewksbury
    Full Name:
    george burgess
    I have read over the above and there is a lot of good , maybe too much. here. So how about an alternative. So lets eliminate references to cars that are considerd "correctly restored" as judged by FCA and other accepted standards. Now lets just have two categories, Replicas and Reproductions. Category A "replicas" to include cars constructed entirely with Ferrari parts. It will be a replica of a single s/n Ferrari or a model or type of Ferrari car. All parts are to be original Ferrari "of the period" or custom built "of the period.The car will be identified by the chassis and engine number being used and what car or type Ferrari it is a replica of. Modifications of an original car such as rebodies may be included in thei category.Certain non original type equipment will be allowed to cover safety and road use requirements.. Category B "reproduction" A car built to represent a particular Ferrari s/n car or model/type. No Ferrari parts need be included but some real Ferrari parts are encouraged. The quality of design, construction and finish must be of a high standard representing a specific original Ferrari model. The car must display badges or other objects clearly indicating that it is "Class B Reproduction". An informal format will be established to control the judging process. Please remember the above is only an outline in an effort to keep this reasonably secure and generally acceptable. If this should become a first step, then details can be worked out
     
  5. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
    tewksbury
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    george burgess
    Sorry I didn't sign off on this. "just one man's opinion tongascrew"
     
  6. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
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    Pete
    But we should be discouraging replicas using Ferrari parts not the other way around ...
    Pete
     
  7. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
    tewksbury
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    george burgess
    Your opinion is well meaning but from a practicle pont of view is just not realistic.Thousands of 250 GTEs were built but few will be saved.The economics just don't make sense and there doesn't seem to be any future there.So the probable result will be that more and more of the cars will head for the junk yard. And so many of the parts of these cars that were identicle or similar to those used in collectable models will be lost.Lost, gone, forgotten to what end? The cylinder block of a 250 GTE is not much different than the one in a 250 TDF or SWB. Many other original parts were also interchangable or similar.. So why not encourage the use of these parts in some nice,well doccumented replicas.The parts would be preserved and more enthusiasts would be able to afford a replica of a car the original of which they could never afford. I believe that the Facory would allow this to proceed as long as these replicas were clearly identified and doccumentes for what they are.Replica construction is actually going on already and Ferrari has to spend time and effort policing the trade. Why not just legitimize the issue. We ae not talking about drugs that severly damage society. Just saving some of the past and making it more available and interesting to more. just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
  8. IanB

    IanB F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 15, 2006
    15,624
    Sydney
    955 GTE's and 50 330 Americas.

    Hardly "thousands" and how many survive?
     
  9. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Sorry tongascrew, could not disagree with you more. All of these old Ferraris are rare and such a waste to be converted into something that has no history ...

    I'll leave it there. Everybody knows my viewpoint on the subject.
    Pete
     
  10. ggjjr

    ggjjr Formula Junior

    Nov 11, 2003
    870
    Detroit
    Full Name:
    George
    Are you kidding?
     
  11. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    :)

    IMO all is good. The events like the one's Doug's involved with that allow replicas and kit cars to run are what they are. Threads like this one out those cars. Defining them isn't important. Disclosing exactly what they are is. The replica that started this thread has been for sale for years at prices way above the market. Anyone who would buy a replica 250 GTO for more than an original F40 is an idiot. There are several replica 250 GTO that have remained unsold for a long time as well. These cars cost more to build then they're worth. Anyone putting a Ferrari badge on a replica is fooling themselves and if they get off on that they're their own punishment.
     
  12. wax

    wax Five Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jul 20, 2003
    51,457
    SFPD
    Full Name:
    Dirty Harry
    Yep. That's when they Jump The Sharknose.
     
  13. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #788 Napolis, Mar 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  14. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie

    Aug 13, 2002
    3,799
    Santa Fe, NM
    Sorry - this is the very mindset that is killing the GTE; the notion that it's really not so bad to cut up viable GTEs to make "nice, well documented replicas." We would have to ask Tom Wilson to weigh in w/ a best guess, but my best guess is that maybe 500 GTEs remain that either haven't been destroyed or butchered for fakes.

    In my opinion a real "Ferrari enthusiast" cares about the preservation of real Ferraris, not making replicas to satisfy some erstwhile fantasy that they're getting an "authentic GTO/TdF" experience. My perpetual question to these people is whether they have ever driven a well-sorted GTE? They are fantastic cars . . . . and REAL Ferraris as Enzo made them.

    Does it ever make economic sense to restore a GTE? Unlikely. But that's where the real enthusiasts come in. I am not the only person who made the financially unwise decision to restore a 1960s Ferrari 2+2, but we're out there. I would rather be upside down on the dollars, but have saved a piece of automotive history, and driving a REAL Ferrari, than to have contributed to the destruction of the dwindling number of real GTEs.
     
  15. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
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    george burgess
    No, not at all!!! Do you have a better idea? Glad to hear it. just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
  16. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
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    george burgess
    Good points. Defining them though is important if there are to be several categories. I think any one with a nice replica would much prefer not having a reproduction, like kit cars, in their category. What ever categories are settled on, prices should not be an issue and decided strictly by the market. In a previous thread I have recommended that cars in each category display badges etc clearly indicating exactly what the car is. The best example of the need for this is in the "replica" 250 GTO category. just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
  17. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
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    george burgess
    All good points that must be held as long as is practical. No I have never driven a GTE but did own a 328GTS in Italy for several years, an experience that I don't ever expect to equal. My feeling about the GTE issue is that unless the earth actually turns out to be flat the active GTE population will continue to decline as these cars fail to be maintained and restored and end up discarded.I greatly respect those who bring these cars back but reality sets in.Personally I would much prefer to see a nice replica based on a GTE than the same GTE discarded for ever. I don't expect to ever win everyone over on this subject. However I think that by encouraging well done replicas that are clearly displayed and doccumented for what they are is a worthwile effort. just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
  18. djfrens

    djfrens Formula 3

    Jan 9, 2007
    2,112
    The Netherlands
    My point of view is to built a recreation or replica not based on a classic Ferrari that has to be wrecked , but use other materials to built a dreamcar...
     
  19. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    You have one of those replica badges on your car?

    How about Ferrari badges? You have any on your replica?
     
  20. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
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    george burgess
    This is what I call a reproduction. I built a "reproduction" 250 California kit car. It has Ferrari GTE seats and a few other Ferrari parts but it is clear this is a reproduction. I wish I could afford the real thing or even a good replica. just one man's opinion tongscrew
     
  21. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Does it have Ferrari Badges????
     
  22. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

    Jan 14, 2007
    12,143
    The Netherlands
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    Onno
    I have no problem with that. If you don't use original materials, you're not putting pressure on the original cars. But the condition for me is that you don't pretend it is the real thing.


    Onno
     
  23. toto70_0

    toto70_0 F1 Rookie

    Sep 14, 2004
    3,841
    NETHERLANDS
    Good news,

    Mercedes Benz has been lately very busy, to be able to have the replicas of their cars, confiscated and destroyed, it looks like they are succeeding with that. If that happens it will be for the other makes a peace of cake to do so as well.
    It will be better for the world, people who own complete fakes and act as if they have something real, always talk bad about other cars, that is a conclusion I have made through the years.
     
  24. 365GTC/4

    365GTC/4 Formula 3

    Apr 7, 2005
    2,287
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    John
    #799 365GTC/4, Mar 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Well said Bryan. A well sorted GTE is bloody fast. I have been in convoy at speed with Daytonas, 275GTB/C etc and the old crappy unloved GTE stuck with 'em. And they look beautiful inside and out. And they are the reason Ferrari even exists today as they bankrolled the race activity back in the early '60s when Ferrari was making a name for itself on the world's race tracks. So why not chop up rare, beautiful, fast and historically significant cars to "create" fakes?? If you want a GTO buy a real one, make one from scratch or make one out of a Datsun.
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  25. yale

    yale Formula Junior

    May 2, 2004
    744
    New York City

    Of course that screwy tonga guy is slow to answer this one.
     

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