Vintage section Fake/Replica/Recreation/Rebody discussion

10527 argento/nero (seen by me in 2007) and 10875 rosso/nero (seen by me in 2003) have been displayed at the Cavallino. but as far as i know they have not been at the concorso. i saw 10527 in the parking lot at the Breakers and 10875 at Moroso.

 

Thank you. Parking lot or track have zero to do with a JUDGED Concours.

Marcel Massini

 

But isn´t this all, in fact, besides the point. It isn´t about whether or not it is ´morally´ ok to remove the original body of a 250 GTE or PF Coupe, and have it modified to make it look like a SWB California or GTO (it isn´t) but about whether or not cars like that should have a place in the Vintage-section. To me, cars like this are an abomination, but they don´t cease to be genuine Ferrari´s. So that should be enough to be ´eligable´ for the Vintage-section, no?

Could not agree more!

 

And that's why it's also important to keep track of the Ferrari based replicas. So that we know what we're dealing with.

 

Half the members of this forum can not understand why the other half have a problem.

It seems as if names for copies such as replicas, recreations, fakes, tributes or whatever have multiplied to such an extent that now we are trying to interpret what they really mean. I always thought a fake is a fake. Silly boy, a fake is not a fake if it is a replica. And we can keep this going on and on. Sort of a "Catch 22".

A couple of years ago, an Italian court ordered the destruction of two historic Maseratis, an A6GCS and the other a 350S. Both had replica chassis and bodies but many components were original and genuine, including one of three surviving 350S engines. Despite documentation pointing out the relevant differences between the replicas and real cars, a campaign to stamp out brand forgery the court ordered police to seize the cars.

The Italian government's view on non-original articles of any sort is evident and protects the local industries. I believe Ferrarichat members are guardians of the name Ferrari, and all that goes with it. I don't want to see any minimization or loss of strength in that brand also. However there has been many an older Ferrari that has had a newer body. Some of these examples have been done in-house and others by the companies Carrozzeria or even Favre, Meade or such.

It would be a shame for Ferrari's to be confirmed as a Ferrari as Bugatti is 'approved' to call itself a Bugatti. The chassis of any Ferrari is its backbone and CANNOT be changed. The engine is the heart, and unless it has been there for a significant time, should be matched to the chassis. The bodywork or skin is also important, but not as much as the other two.

An original Ferrari is a piece of art and is as the manufacturer intended it to be. A Ferrari is a piece of art and is not that far from an original. Is a fake Ferrari something that the manufacture never envisaged happening to the car.

Re-bodying race cars, changing engines, or having even non standard wheels on a Ferrari, the manufacturer probably thought may happen, BUT, they never envisaged a 330 being torn apart to make it into something else or a chevy engine stuck on a Toyota chassis with a 355 body. You get my jist.

 

I agree for the "Ferrari based replicas" but not for all the other &%x#+ç? !!
But I still suggest to have a totally separate section, I think it would be good to have it in the "general discussion" area, but certainly not in the vintage section.

Marcel Massini

 

Somewhere around 1987 old Ferraris turned into an investment class. $50K cars were suddenly auctioning for $1.5m. Just like collectible art, the large numbers made authenticity important, but also attracted fakes.

Some of the people who hold strong opinions also make their living from the modern paradigm. Some have been "kissed by an angel" because their ratty old racing car is now a 7 figure retirement plan.

It saddens me to go to Pebble beach events and listen to many conversations about prices, but very few about driving.

It saddens me to see GTE's and the like cannibalised, but the market animal that feeds the brokers/auctioneers/experts is not sentimental, it needs to be fed and it will take the money from anyone.

I have a modified Ferrari. I preserve it carefully but I use it as its maker intended and driving it is the most sublime pleasure, that is it's value to me.

 

i would suggest a separate sub-forum in the vintage forum because mostly vintage cars have been used for replicas. for sure only to discuss Ferrari-based replicas. everything else has no place in Ferrarichat.
in the general discussion these threads will be lost and hard to find.
i agree that it is important to identify these cars, discuss them and seperate them from the originals.

 

found a pic of 10527 at the lawn too. dont know the year, not my pic.
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This car was NOT judged. It was displayed only (Palm Beach Cavallino Classic in January 2007). According to the IAC/PFA guidelines and rules it could never have been judged. Simply because it is a cut 4-cam. IAC/PFA = International Advisory Council for the Preservation of the Ferrari Automobile.

COPYRIGHT MARCEL MASSINI
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Agree that a different "replica or historic recreation" section seems appropriate. I am bothered that so many 250 GTE's and 330 America's have found themselves "recreated" to deliver rare fake Ferrari's at a portion of the cost of an authentic example. Ironically, only 50 Ferrari 330 America were built, so they are pretty rare in their own right.

However, even with my disdain for dismantling these cars, I have found myself admiring the talent and workmanship required to build some of these historic recreations. In a perfect world, we would save even the least desirable Ferrari's, but restoring a 330 America, 365 GT 2+2, 330 GT, or 250GTE, can cost more than the car is worth, and apparently, their chassis with a "recreated" body, is worth a lot more than the original. As usual, supply and demand, will dictate the continuation of the "replica" market--unfortunately there is demand for them.

 

Their chassis with a "recreated" body, FOR ME is certainly NOT worth a lot more than the original. And it always means that a genuine old Ferrari (used as donor) has been destroyed forever. It is all about $$$, nothing else.

Marcel Massini

 

I am with you, just saying, what they're selling for, not what they're worth to you, or me!

 

I think all those who support this don't realize that then somebody would have to make a decision whether a given car is original or not. And he would have to remake that decision every time the car pops up again. And defend his decision against all the people complaining about that decision. This is why it'll never happen and that is a good thing as there are too many cars on the borderline to make it feasible.

Best wishes, Kare

 

I once looked at a Porsche 550 Spyder Replica, however no Porsche's were harmed in its creation--it was a fun little car. For whatever reason, it didn't bother me that it wasn't real, but with Ferrari's it is different.

 

+1

Also I suspect some of these threads are started by people who have seen cars at events and want to know more about them not realising they are replicas/recreations/fake (delete to preference). I don't think anywone should be berated for wanting to know more about vintage Ferraris.

 

Shocking, just shocking.

PS: Guys, do your homework. But not in the vintage section of fchat, please. Thank you.

Marcel Massini

 

I am speaking only on behalf of myself, but for me ´doing my homework´ is posting questions on F-chat. And questions regarding vintage Ferrari´s (which I can not suspect to be fake without the information I am looking for in the first place) should be posted on the Vintage-section as per the layout of the site. Should the thread be removed once it has became clear the car is fake, than of course I wouldn´t have any objection about the thread being moved or removed alltogether.

I have a number of books (your book on Vignale is always helpful for instance) and magazines and of course google, but still Fchat is a major source of information and I hope it remains that way.

 

There are cars discussed in Vintage which are fakes too, but not many people know,
Who REALLY knows if we deal with the REAL (ooh and what is real?.......):
GTO
SWB
250LM
250TRs
Daytona Comp
512M
etc
etc

'real' papers doesnt always say anything...........

Sometimes you cant say: fake, restoration, recreation or whatsoever.

Its a difficult matter. Maybe better to make an extra thread for recreations / replicas.
Regarding Redline Restorations, almost all shops do work on real and fake cars.

Don't show photo's from Giordanengo, Bachelli etc etc anymore? All make replicas because there is a market for them.

Money money money in a rich mans world............ who finds me bread and cheese, it's to his tune I dance

 

But would you say s/n 3873 is even today still a Ferrari, albeit with an ´unfortunate´ history?

 

F-chat like any new media is great in that it adapts to correct the errors, so in most cases you will soon know what it is all about.

Not a single book has been published that would come even close in accuracy - and the errors remain uncorrected forever. I wish more authors would ask help for identifying the photos, but they always think they can do it themselves - and fail.

And yes, I think medias like Ferrarichat play an important role in educating people. Among other things, Ferrarichat is increasing people's knowledge about replicas; most people here now know what it's all about. We don't need to hear the attributes like "indistinguishable", "100% correct", "better than original" crap in these circles anymore. This, in my opinion, clearly increases the common respect for real cars!

Best wishes, Kare

 

The internet and google are ok to obtain some basic information. It certainly is great to have these tools but it is NOT enough. Not at all. It is a small part. But there are also tons of books, articles, magazines, literature, stuff you will not find on the internet. Old documents, correspondence and old photographs. People who think that the only source is the internet are shortsighted. Guys, jump in your car, start travelling, learn about other cultures, go to the meetings, write to the owners, their mechanics, the race drivers, visit restorers, go to vintage races, events, swap meets, flea markets, all over the world, 24/7. Go into the attic (of your grandparents etc) and dig out old photo albums. Contact old photo agencies, browse thru old local newspapers. Etc., etc. It really takes a little more than just a few mouse clicks.

Just my 2 cents, of course.

Marcel Massini