[video] bad CCR 458 crash Road America | Page 3 | FerrariChat

[video] bad CCR 458 crash Road America

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by rob lay, Jun 30, 2015.

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  1. Europeanroadandracing

    Europeanroadandracing South Carolina
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    Dec 19, 2003
    2,228
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    Karl Troy
    I wonder if their tires touched to launch the 458 like that. If so. Aero wouldn't have helped very much.
     
  2. vlamgat

    vlamgat Formula Junior

    Jan 9, 2004
    776
    Keith, for the record, the next slowest competitors in the 430 class had taken themselves out in a bizarre first turn, first lap of Qualifying the previous day. Steve was turning the same times as Jim in the 458 and the passing sequence in the early part of the video demonstrates that they were "racing" as opposed to the facsimile of a procession that often passes for racing. Steve was first in class and first in points in the 430 Class. Steve is approaching T4 using the line most of us employed which has a displaced apex about a half car width from the left edge of the track. He is not yet at the apex.

    Jim is positioning himself to do the classic "Miata Squeeze" of sticking his nose in as far as he can in the hope (I suppose) that Steve will move out and let him past because he is willing him to do so. I have had 4 instances of Miatas doing that to me because in a my FWD car I have to drive into the apex even though my worthless rear is as much as a car length from the edge of the track. The Miata drivers assume that because the rear is so far out the front will go there too and when it does not ... oops there is no room and they t-bone me on my rear fender and spin me off track. I have no idea if Jim is/was a Miata man but the action sure looks like the video I have of my encounters with the species.

    In addition, the track was extremely greasy. IMO, had Jim got past Steve he could not have made it through T5 without getting into the marbles and the turtles in the run off area. There was no grip there and they were sharp enough to destroy a number of tires that weekend. A fact that caused the Pirelli reps to walk that part of the track to look for themselves. So besides all the questions as to whether the pass should have been attempted, I wonder what the pass was supposed to achieve because its unlikely he could have put the needed 2 car lengths on Steve unless Steve let him have the both 4 & 5 which is unreasonable to expect given that they were "racing" not driving. Also 5 has a weird entry that requires a very early turn in such that Steve would have had to effectively throw the race to make that corner. I had a 430 come inside me in practice at 5 even though I had my hand out the window to give a pass from the exit of 4. He dawdled so that even though I had slowed excessively we were side by side at the apex. There was no grip and I ended up a car width into the run off area to avoid him and could not get back on track without going on the grass. Same thing happened in 6.

    I heard some whining about the risks of different classes racing together because of the speed differential. In the case of this incident, there was no speed differential. Their times were the same in the 2:17/18 sphere and they had agreed to race before the event.
     
  3. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,180


    You've made my point, thanks. There's a lot that goes on in a driver's mind. The situation is complicated, and I find Saini's position incredibly unhelpful. I don't even think the video supports it. Why is he weighing in? What good does it do?

    My post was not intended to address fault - my take is, as you say, that there was fault on both sides. John H will try to figure that out.

    Complaining about multiclass racing is pointless. Most racing is multiclass, right? When I raced open wheel cars in SCCA, the driver I dreaded the most was a slow-in-the-corners Atlantic - huge bummer for lots of the smaller displacement cars. But eventually one has to grow up and learn that not every class can have its own race group. The only answer I've ever found is to be in the fastest class in a race group, but even that carries its own risks.

    For CCR, IMO the critical questions are why this and the qualifying incidents occurred and how the likelihood of similar incidents can be reduced. IMO you absolutely have to take a hard and consistent line in rules, 13/13 decisions, etc. It's not easy, but you have to make clear that drivers need to take care of each other and there are plenty of other venues for hard racing. You're going to have incidents no matter what you do, but most should be single car stuff - something like this suggests that the gentleman driver series message might not be getting through, despite the obviously good intentions.
     
  4. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula 3

    Nov 6, 2002
    2,101
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    John William H.
    As I said before, we are going to take out time with this. As Will said well, it's a time to reiterate what the series means. As I said before the series has changed dramatically from its inception in terms of skill level an competition and that has carried forth new challenges. I'm convinced this can be done and we are going to use this incredible, awful, dramatic, and eye opening footage as a tool. Our report will be significant and I we will use the opportunity to really go into the philosophy of what we are doing Moving forward. There will be new chapters in the rulebook as a result.
     
  5. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Dec 1, 2000
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    John, I will take 5 from the class of 2011 against any other year! :D

    Mark McKenzie
    Jerome Bucose
    William Haney
    Onofrio Triarsi
    Rob Lay - just to give other years a chance. ;)
     
  6. kverges

    kverges F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
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    Keith Verges
    I was not complaining about multi-class racing, just remarking that the motives are part of the overall equation and deconstructing the incident. It is great fun to win overall in slower equipment and easy to get caught up in the rush of doing so. Steve was headed that way. It's also far too easy to assess this incident with the benefit of multiple in-car videos and video angles, and the time to carefully think it through, debate it, and get the viewpoints of multiple other persons. Neither driver had that luxury at the moment, and to require that level of thoughtfulness and deliberation is unrealistic.

    The people who can drive these cars are all extremely successful and no doubt driven individuals, likely with very large egos to boot. While a lot can be learned, it is also unrealistic to think that this can be permanently prevented with rule changes. I bet the "blame" for this incident can be assessed within the existing rule set. One "fix" would have been for Steve to let both 458 through so that they could dice to the end of the race and he could take his class win. It's awfully hard to expect a talented racer to do something like that. I sure know I would not. You could also have required Jim in the number 33 458 let Steve go and take his chances with the car chasing him. Also unrealistic.

    In the end, I don't know all the facts and even if I did I don't think there is probably a "right" answer. I am just glad both drivers are physically OK, and just that more well seasoned and almost guaranteed never to do this again.
     
  7. Entropy

    Entropy Formula 3
    Owner

    Jul 10, 2008
    2,149
    The mechanics of this crash, from my view of the video, is that the RF wheel of the 458 contacted the LR wheel of the 430...."locking" wheels, and putting the 458's nose up in the air. The coincidence of the cars and the sudden lift of the car indicate that.

    The amount of torque and inertia in the wheels at this speed is amazing, so wheel-to-wheel contact easily will put almost any car up in the air. When you're doing 150 mph+ with a flat bottom car, a little bit of air underneath will make that car into a flying vehicle. I do not think he dropped a wheel to cause that; if so, the car would be more likely to rotate than have the nose aim for the sky. The in-car of the 430 appears to capture the (to him) very slight implication of contact.

    In fact, I had this happen to me earlier this year, at 60mph locked wheels were enough to put a 3,000 lb car up in the air and OVER my car. This (cars getting up in the air) happens often enough that it's not a strange occurrence, though happening at 150mph might be more rare and cars flying into fences thankfully even more rare. The wheel spokes on the car(s) actually protrude outward from the rim, which "helps" i guess.

    While it was a different mechanism, the recent highly publicized GTR crash at the Nurburgring had a similar profile...high speed, air under the car, and it will fly along riding its tail until the center of pressure either drops it back down, flips it, or (unfortunately in both cases) it hits something. FWIW, GT cars (ii.e. Challenge cars, GT3 cars) that get sideways at high speed places like Daytona, or Monza, will easily get up in the air, Talledega-style.

    The Evo kit would not have prevented this, a even a few hundred pounds of downforce would not have overcome the torque/force of the locked wheels. The Evo kit makes the car more stable for sure, especially under braking. Generally I'd take more downforce on any track car, as long as it was balanced.

    In terms of the driving, my view (based solely on this video) is the 430 came down on the 458. Intentional, misguided, accidental or purely ignorant on the part of the 430, who knows. I've done a fair bit of mixed-class racing, the issue tends to be less the difference in cars, but the difference in the drivers....
     
  8. kverges

    kverges F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
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    #58 kverges, Jul 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2015
    Thanks for the further insight, Colin. I've only raced momentum cars at RA and for us 4 is a straiight where you can put your car anywhere you like. Drafting and defending dictate where you drive.

    As far as any "squeeze" goes, if you are not yet turning in, and especially not on the brakes, I personally leave at least a car width of track for a car that I can tell is going to be able to pull along side before a brake zone. I suspect Jim thought there would be room to the left of Steve and picked that side. If Steve needed to get closer to the left for 4 then perhaps Jim should have anticipated that. There are a lot of moving parts to this analysis.

    Finally, since you had to pick on Miatas, IMO the pointy end of SM and any Spec class is usually very respectful and cognizant of racing room with very close quarters. I've had some incidents but generally feel the fast drivers can be trusted, but if I have a run and know I can get along side before the brake zone (and it is late in the race so the pass can make a finishing position difference) I expect a car width from the car ahead. If I perceive a second move from that car after selecting his or her line, then I may press matters.
     
  9. JSinNOLA

    JSinNOLA F1 World Champ
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    Mar 18, 2002
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    Denver, CO
    Suffice to say, the attitudes and acumen of those commenting in this thread certainly indicate that no matter what the outcome is of the full analysis in terms of the circumstances, the series will be further improved. So there is definitely a silver lining here.
     
  10. NSXER

    NSXER Formula 3

    Jan 4, 2004
    1,307
    Kansas
    After watching the in car video of the lead car...I feel it was the leading cars fault. Driver looked in his left mirror and clearly made a move to block. I have raced at RA for the last 7 years and know the spot well. I have observed the same maneuver many times at this exact spot and have been run in the grass by another driver doing the same. Lead driver knew exactly what he was doing...

    Brian
     
  11. vlamgat

    vlamgat Formula Junior

    Jan 9, 2004
    776
    Not really picking on the Miata family; its only that when it comes to the inside line they can "own" it because the handling, is so go-kart like. And you are right, the front of the pack has never posed a problem for me, but towards the rear there seems to be an optimism or "hope" that space will be made by either faster out of class cars or ones with different handling characteristics which is not always possible.

    We had a bit of contention at the last NASA TWS event when they stuck RX7s with the rest of Blitz which now includes ST3 Thunder Roadsters that run ST1 times. The RX7 guys tried to warn the 58 car field that once they committed to the apex they could not change their line to let the 20 sec per lap faster Roadsters through but at least one of the Roadster guys cried foul (or was it fowl) and said that if he got his nose in he would keep on going and they had to accept the punt. Jay Matus and I complained that was unreasonable in an event like this but were shouted down and told to make room for the "adults". So it seems that there are definitely two sides to the racing-room argument in multi class events and this will take time and $$$ to get resolved.

    Not sure if I hijacked the thread so will abstain from here.
     
  12. kverges

    kverges F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
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    Fair enough. Race long and hard enough and you will crash. It is important to aspire for safety and clear heads, but you are kidding yourself if you think crashes won't happen and that is why I don't run 13/13 series, and am probably not welcomed there either.
     
  13. willcrook

    willcrook Formula 3

    Feb 3, 2009
    2,129
    UK
    This is also my feeling after having watched the video several times.
     
  14. Lcawley

    Lcawley Karting

    Nov 16, 2011
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    Jupiter, FL
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    Lance C. Cawley
    John H. Thanks for taking the time to sort this out for "our" series. I enjoy racing with CCR and look forward to the next race with CCR. I highly recommend coaches for the less experienced drivers, which has helped me a great deal and CCR encourages coaches for the newer drivers. Both of the drivers involved in the incident were the fastest drivers currently in the series and very experienced so coaching was not an issue per se.
     
  15. RotarySwingGolf

    RotarySwingGolf Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2011
    490
    Florida and Idaho
    hey Lance, can you confirm what was said in the driver's meeting regarding this section of track? I was told that the drivers were told to specifically allow room here for passing drivers on Booth's line because of the oddity of the narrowing of the track here.
     
  16. jakermc

    jakermc Formula 3
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    Jan 17, 2004
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    I suspect you have never driven a 430C? There is a massive bling spot, simply assuming that Steve saw the car because he looked that way is a big leap. This car has the worst visibility of anything I've ever raced, and that covers a lot of different cars.
     
  17. Lcawley

    Lcawley Karting

    Nov 16, 2011
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    We were told in the drivers meeting, if I recall correctly not to try to pass in turn five and leave that to the pros. I watched all three PWC GT races on TV which I Still have them on DVR and I think they are instructive on how the pros race on this section of the track. I encourage every one commenting on this event to watch their lines from turn 3 to 5. I will leave it to John H. and the pros to draw the conclusions as there are a lot of things to consider.
     
  18. Lcawley

    Lcawley Karting

    Nov 16, 2011
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    Lance C. Cawley
    To add, we were instructed to be careful and to allow room in general. The message was clear in the meeting to be mindful and that we were there to number one be safe and to enjoy ourselves.
     
  19. kverges

    kverges F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
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    Really? 1, 5 and 12 are the best places to pass IMO
     
  20. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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    Apr 20, 2004
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    +1
     
  21. dmundy

    dmundy Formula 3
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    Sep 11, 2010
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    Agreed.

    I can't fathom that not being a prime passing spot.
     
  22. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    Sep 15, 2004
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    That did not happen... Pure and simple.

    I have taught, coached and raced in 13/13 series for three decades.

    And I've been on 13/13. Twice...

    kverges, I've won Nationals (pardon me, Majors), too. If you drive sensibly and leave racing room, you won't have an issue in the 13/13 series.
     
  23. kverges

    kverges F1 Rookie

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    #73 kverges, Jul 13, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2015
    I think I struggle with the "sensibly" part. My last SRF race had minor contact when I left room at turn in and my competitor was just a bit too ambitious in the braking zone on the pass and I knew he could not get to the apex and leave room for me at track out. It was not a huge mistake and I decided to go ahead and leave as much room as I could, but not allow him to overtake via a mistake and we touched side-by-side before track out. I judged the contact would be minor, but decided not to leave the track or over-slow and let him have the entire turn. No real harm to the cars other than a new donut on my bodywork (going for that Olympic motif) and we continued the race without further incident and he did not try that again. in a 13/13 series one or both of us would have gone home. When the steward asked if I wanted to protest, I said "protest what?"

    I have had a similar situation only with MUCH more speed on my competitor's part and knew the contact would be hard, so in that case I left the track and allowed him to proceed (he actually went 4 off, too). My competitor, with whom I have raced many times, shocked the hell out of me and gave me the position back on the last lap, remarking to me in impound that he did not deserve the pass.

    It's awfully tough to be perfect and avoid all contact IMO, esp. when you are really racing.

    I have always thought the 13/13 rule should only apply if the competitors can't resolve things themselves; i.e. they visit, talk it through, and only then approach the steward with the understanding that a penalty could result. If 2 talented racers bump in the heat of battle and no real harm or competitive advantage results, they should be able to disregard it.

    Finally, my main problem with 13/13 was having to go home from Sebring years ago for a minor bump (I was not on probation until that moment) - it was an expensive trip and I don't like the risk of something minor resulting in losing a day or more of racing and track time. If I'd been at TWS and in my own rig it would have been a nuisance, but the tow and travel bill to Sebring was thousands.
     
  24. Europeanroadandracing

    Europeanroadandracing South Carolina
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    Dec 19, 2003
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    I have raced in 13/13 series and have had hardly any incidents while winning many races and several Championships. I agree with you that it takes some of the fun out of it. I was at Sebring working my way through the field last year when a driver dive bombed a few cars in front of me. I made all efforts to steer clear but cars went in all directions and I barely bumped a guy in front of me. All involved had to come in and were removed from the race for the rest of the weekend. I later received an email stating that I had been cleared from any contribution to the incident. DUH. That didn't help much after the entire effort, expense, etc. had been waisted.
     
  25. dmundy

    dmundy Formula 3
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    Speaking only for myself, if I was "sensible" I wouldn't have ever raced or wanted to.

    In short I think racing is a contact sport. I don't think that makes everything ok, or that "anything goes" but... I think an incident like kverges described with a ring Mark on the side of a car is just normal.

    I'd also say that a lot of the comments about this incident in particular seem to have no allowance for just how fast the cars involved are. These guys did not have a lot of time to sort things out. And the faster the car the higher the penalty for error is.
     

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