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Vettel must NOT start 2020 in Ferrari

Discussion in 'F1' started by 444sp, Nov 17, 2019.

  1. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    Fully agree. He is in a slow poorly developed car. His past shows his capability against so called great talent. How can anyone say he is not capable.
     
  2. I'm 360 Canuck

    I'm 360 Canuck Formula 3

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    Easily, past is not present.
    Look at how the previous 5 pages of posts refer to a 4time WDC.
     
  3. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    One not full year vs YEARS for Vettel. I would not say that is a direct comparison at all.
    Vettel has well earned a falling reputation. Not so for Ricci.
     
  4. I'm 360 Canuck

    I'm 360 Canuck Formula 3

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    True, so maybe when names are being tossed around, the main consideration should be, who can be Ferrari’s Bottas?
     
  5. I'm 360 Canuck

    I'm 360 Canuck Formula 3

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    Remind me again, how many f1 wdc’s does Ricci have?
    Ricci should be flattered to be mentioned as a comparison to vettel.
     
  6. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    LOL! Vettel is hardly one to set standards. He lacks utterly close driving competitive skills. In front to win pressure free. Add pressure and review his lack of performance.

    He is the most over rated WDC along with Kimi.
     
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  7. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    It looked promising during winter testing.
    It did not look promising from Australia onward.
     
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  8. catdog

    catdog Rookie

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    Agree re. Vettel being overrated but Kimi is awesome when he's on fire, unfortunately he hasn't been on fire for a number of years but he was amazing in his McLaren days
     
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  9. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

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    Bottas?:eek: from 2021
     
  10. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    Well, Ferrari won the winter testing championship.
    It went downhill from there, until at least mid-season.
     
  11. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    Christ !!! That was a decade ago !!!

    Yes, he was very good and drove at his best then, but was plagued by unreliable cars.

    IMO, he deserved more the WDC when he was at McLaren, than the one he scraped by in 2007.
     
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  12. I'm 360 Canuck

    I'm 360 Canuck Formula 3

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    I don’t actually mean Valtteri Bottas....just someone with a similar comfort in being a reliable wingman. It’s a short list though.
     
  13. I'm 360 Canuck

    I'm 360 Canuck Formula 3

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    Well now you just sound like the Lewis haters on here.
    Look, we can critique all the details,...EXCEPT wins. Winning is all that counts, and trumps all else.

    If vettel was doing his BS this year and it was paying off, we wouldn’t be complaining.

    But then again, this is a thread where some are saying they should replace a 4 time wdc with, even some British kid with 0 points. Whether it’s Russel, Daniel, Seb or anyone else, a seat at Ferrari should be earned and proven. Otherwise they may as well just draw straws. Every driver at this level shows flashes of excellence and excitement. It doesn’t make them winners. What Ferrari needs is someone who won’t snatch defeat from the hands of victory.
    A lot of young drivers made an impression last weekend. I didn’t see DR among them, and I’m not convinced his car is much worse than most of them.
     
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  14. ingegnere

    ingegnere Formula 3
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    Long post but basically summarizing everything the anti-Vettels have been saying. From Autosport with some pertinent sections bolded by me:

    Why Vettel's emotion is now undermining Ferrari
    [​IMG]
    OPINION: Forget the stewards' verdict that blame was equal in the Ferrari drivers' Interlagos clash - this was clearly another example of one of Sebastian Vettel's flaws. What Ferrari does - or doesn't do - next will have long-running repercussions

    By Scott Mitchell
    F1 Reporter

    [​IMG]

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    Inevitable. Disappointing. "Silly". How you viewed the race-ending crash between the two Ferrari drivers in the Brazilian Grand Prix depends on where you were watching from.

    Outside the team, it felt like something that has been brewing since the very first race of 2019, when Charles Leclerc was ordered not to attack Sebastian Vettel late on. In the car, it was anger-inducing and definitely the fault of the other driver's belligerence - according to both sides. From the pitwall, team principal Mattia Binotto's perspective, it was just..."silly".

    Put two alpha drivers in the same team, and they will come to blows. It is inevitable given egos are big and stakes run high. Lewis Hamilton and Nico Rosberg are the obvious example. Max Verstappen and Daniel Ricciardo too. But neither of those partnerships, and none since Hamilton and Fernando Alonso at McLaren, produced the explosive Vettel-Leclerc dynamic that Ferrari is contending with.

    Ferrari faces something very similar to what McLaren struggled with in 2007: an experienced world champion who needs to be the centre of attention to thrive, and a young upstart who shouldn't be calling the shots but is too quick to be caged. It is a dynamic that could tear Ferrari apart.

    Neither driver nor team will benefit from being distracted by civil war. And this kind of collision that can be the genesis of exactly that.

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    The worst thing is it was wholly avoidable, and whatever the Brazilian GP stewards may think, there was clearly one driver predominantly to blame.

    When Leclerc mugged Vettel into the first corner with five laps to go in the Brazilian GP, anger and emotion got the better of Vettel.

    Either Vettel made the most basic of racing errors, drifting aimlessly on the straight, or he had a total loss of sense
    He was free to race, to try to respond to the pass, which he did. So it was legitimate to move to the outside aided by the DRS on the run to the Descida do Lago turn at the end of the following straight, which he did.

    But, as team boss Mattia Binotto pointed out, free to race does not mean do something "silly". Which Vettel did, moving left and causing the collision that ended Ferrari's race.

    Most racing drivers are prone to red mist from time-to-time but nobody seems quite so afflicted as Vettel. Either he made the most basic of racing errors on Sunday, drifting aimlessly on the straight, or he had a total loss of sense and was willing to crash into his team-mate.

    He has history in this department. Just think back to the 2010 Turkish GP and his needless clash with Red Bull team-mate Mark Webber. Only this time, Vettel's not the young hotshot with Dr Helmut Marko in his corner. Far from it.

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    Critics will say, with some merit, that this incident could have been avoided if Ferrari had laid down specific rules from the beginning, when the Vettel-Leclerc partnership showed its first signs of tension. "Rules of engagement", like the ones Mercedes brought in when Hamilton and Rosberg came to blows, would be an effective deterrent.

    But Binotto is not a fan of this, isn't interested in any lessons from recent history, and points out, quite fairly, that Ferrari has been criticised when it has tried to manage its drivers this season, and criticised for letting them race.

    The truth is, Leclerc's form might be the trigger for Ferrari's present predicament, but Vettel is the underlying problem.

    This version of Vettel appears incompatible with an equal-status team and a team-mate that is capable of beating him. It is difficult to see how Ferrari (and Leclerc, as previously argued) can fully trust him. This makes any working arrangement, "rules of engagement" or whatever you want to call them, difficult. And it brings out the worst in Vettel himself, not his best. He has not got the temperament, in this Ferrari environment, to be a relied upon, number-one, driver.

    Vettel has proved twice in a handful of races that he cannot be trusted to act with the team's best interests in mind. This is maybe not a complete surprise, given he is, at heart, a selfish racing driver. For many years this was a positive thing and an immensely powerful weapon, it was part of the ruthlessness that brought him four consecutive world titles.

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    But now it risks becoming only a source of grief for Ferrari. So what's the difference? Why was Red Bull able to keep a lid on Vettel's fiery, emotional side, but Ferrari seems powerless to stop it erupting in a counter-productive way?

    Identifying the answer is not easy (just ask Binotto). Perhaps it lies in the circumstances. Vettel's pomp came when he was the undisputed number one and revelling in a Red Bull-Renault that was the class of the field, particularly when its exhaust-blown diffuser concept gave the car huge amounts of downforce, and Vettel was a wizard at making it work effectively. During that period he was best associated with obliterating his opposition, rather than outracing them.

    That doesn't mean Vettel is now unfit for Ferrari. Of course not. But his presence does risk inhibiting what the team can achieve
    Since joining Ferrari in 2015, Vettel has never enjoyed the same combination of status and machinery. His position in the team was unthreatened by Kimi Raikkonen, but Ferrari never quite matched Mercedes. And when it came close to doing so, another Vettel flaw emerged. There is too big a bank of evidence now to deny that Vettel is flawed in combat - at least when up against the very best. He has erred in battle against Hamilton, Verstappen, Ricciardo and now Leclerc.

    The problem for Vettel, and by extension Ferrari, is that Leclerc is not going anywhere. This means that if Vettel stays at Ferrari, his time as undisputed top dog is over, and he has no guarantee of a car tailored to extract his own brilliance (let alone one with an advantage over the opposition).

    That doesn't mean Vettel is now unfit for Ferrari. Of course not. But his presence does risk inhibiting what the team can achieve. If Vettel could be trusted to keep a lid on his emotions, there is no doubt he and Leclerc make a formidable pairing. But it is very possible that is exactly what is restricting Vettel as a driver and making him volatile under pressure - and so casts doubt over what he can be relied upon to do.

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    The Brazil clash was the clearest indication yet that there is a question mark over whether Vettel and Leclerc are a tenable partnership, and working out what to do next is vital for Ferrari. Partly because warring drivers is good for nobody, but also because further flashpoints are likely. In fact, it's almost a surprise this one didn't happen sooner.

    Binotto did not want to review the incident on Sunday at Interlagos. He preferred to wait until Ferrari returned to Italy to get the situation under control. Assuming, of course, that is possible.

    Maybe Vettel has fessed up already. Maybe he's been given both barrels. Or maybe neither has been apportioned blame, and both have just been giving a very, very severe warning that any future instances of overstepping the mark will be handled without mercy.

    That final option would represent something of a cop-out from Ferrari, and could lead to the situation snowballing. It would send an odd message: that it's OK to step out of line, with serious consequences, because the blame will just be shared. What would stop Vettel from risking a repeat in the future? How might Leclerc react to this?

    Whatever solution is reached may well be kept within the corridors at Maranello, but the "silly" action in Brazil must be met with a serious response. If that doesn't happen, the relationship between Vettel and Leclerc, Binotto's grand plan, and Ferrari's entire 2020 season, could be fatally undermined.
     
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  15. subirg

    subirg F1 Rookie

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    Vettel should do a swap with Sainz. His time at Ferrari is up.
     
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  16. DF1

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    Vettel can leave and sit in his house and critique all the trophies he doesnt like. He is old news..........
     
  17. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    In the past, Ferrari wasn't afraid to recruit its drivers outside the F1 pool and trust they would mature and get experience.
    That's how they signed Ickx, Villeneuve, and a few more. They didn't have much credentials before joining Ferrari.
    Now, it seems that only ex-WDCs are suitable.
    Apart from Schumacher, not many of these ex-WDCs won titles at Ferrari: Prost failed, so did Alonso. KImi couldn't repeat and neither Vettel by the look of it.
    So the idea of recruiting a hotshoe outside F1 at a fraction of the cost, and giving him a couple of years to get results is not so stupid.
    Also, I thought that's why F2 was created (GP2 then), to bring up talented drivers to the doors of F1 and offer a choice to teams.
     
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  18. trumpet77

    trumpet77 Formula 3

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    Just for the fun of discussion, well, Ricciardo has just as many world championships as Gilles Villenueve and Sir Stirling Moss, but they are still great drivers.
     
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  19. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie
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    I have been saying this since he was at redbull. He can only win when he is in front. He has made a formula 1 career of it. He had at that time almost zero experience passing. As long as he was in the fastest car and qualified 1st he could run with it. If it got screwed up and he was in the middle forget it.

    He is the German Ricky Bobby
     
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  20. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    Thanks for posting.

    Ferrari has now a dilema about what to do with Vettel.
     
  21. Drive550PFB

    Drive550PFB Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Just keep saying "Multi 21."
     
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  22. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

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    'yeh multi 21!':mad:

    James Hunt would have smacked the **** hard.
     
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  23. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    Nelson Piquet would have tried to kick him in the balls !!!

    Drivers were far less politically correct in those days ...
     
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  24. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    That episode only proved how tightly Vettel was favored over his team - mate. Marko and Horner were never going to do anything about it. Only when Ricci soundly was defeating Seb did they seem to favor him less.
     
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