Very strange ....... | Page 7 | FerrariChat

Very strange .......

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by TZ 750, Feb 8, 2010.

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  1. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #151 TZ 750, Apr 26, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    One last thing back in the back.

    Find the hydraulic control for the load-leveling system,
    and find the associated bleeder.

    The controler was surprisingly easy to get to,
    inboard of the right-rear wheel, and on the frame.

    Bleed provision is visable on the extreme left of the valve;
    looks just like a brake bleeder.

    How hard can that be ?

    Pretty clean car for 26,000 miles,
    and 12 years old ?
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  2. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #152 TZ 750, Apr 28, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Move to the front of the car.

    Jack up the front for access to fluid fittings underneath the front.

    The hood is restrained from fully opening by string so that it will
    not be damaged when I open and close the garage door.

    On floor in left of photo is the cover that protects the
    steering rack area.
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  3. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    Take a look into the fluid reservoir for the
    power steering / load-leveler system.

    No surprise, almost nothing there.

    That’s OK, since I’ll have to drain the system
    to flush and refill with the
    recommended Shell DONAX TA.
     
  4. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
  5. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 6, 2002
    79,212
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    It's all on your tire!!!
     
  6. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912

    No kidding !

    When this first started,
    I thought I had left one of
    those dollys under the wheel.

    You know, the kind that lifts the car up,
    so you can push it around the garage........
     
  7. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #157 TZ 750, Apr 29, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Well, while we are under the hood, and waiting for
    fluid to drain, why not have a look at the air cleaners.

    No need to, since the car had a full 30K service less
    that 1,500 miles ago. but why not.

    So, what is all this ?

    Cotton wadding for a "lower" filter, and a bunch
    of dirt and sand in the bottom of the air cleaner.

    How did this stuff get into the air cleaner ?

    I suspect I drove on a dirt road, and the trash
    was sucked into the bottom of the air cleaner
    through the "water drain holes."

    Is this typical FERRARI design?
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  8. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #158 TZ 750, May 1, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Decision was to do as complete a drain on the fluid as possible,
    and more about that in a few days.

    Removed the "steering protection" pan to give access the a banjo bolt
    on the steering rack. This bolt was the lowest point I could find on the
    fluid system that I could access.

    Losten the bolt a couple of turns.

    Fire the car (aprehension here), and let the pump put out all the
    fluid possible - which was not much.

    Put in about a quart of new fluid. Idle the car maybe five minutes, and
    "power drain" again.
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  9. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #159 TZ 750, May 1, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Empty pan for recycle.

    Let car drain over the weekend, and the last picture shows all we
    got after the first 10 minutes post "power drain."

    Tighten up entire system and add 2 quarts, and idle ten minutes.

    "Power drain" through the bleeder on the rear suspension (see photo's above).

    With any luck, this will flush 99+% of the "bad fluid" out of the system.

    I'll probably drive the car a month, and then drain
    and refill again, just to be sure.

    Oil's cheaper than shocks.
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  10. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #160 TZ 750, May 8, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    We are now back on the road !

    The car drives much better,
    with the rear handling much more predictably.

    Have put about 200 miles on the car, around town,
    with a few brief "spurts" on the interstate,
    nothing over 100 MPH, though.
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  11. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #161 TZ 750, May 8, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Some of you may recall that when
    I had this car serviced by TIM STANFORD
    in Fort Lauderdale, that I had Tim R&R the intake plenums
    and powdercoat them red.

    The stock paint scheme has no red under the hood,
    and I thought that a FERRARI V-12 just deserved,
    and looked better, with some red accent.

    Tim's job turned out very well !
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  12. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #162 TZ 750, May 8, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Well, we still haven't figured out what
    the problem was in the first place.

    HOWEVER, we are getting out the BIG guns,
    and working on that.

    I hope to have an answer this week - so stay tuned.

    You will recall the symptom was bad handling,
    and was traced almost immediately to this:

    Blown up shock lower.

    All the fluid rejoins the environment.......

    As RIFLEMAN pointed out, it looks like
    that area of the car has had a leak for some time,
    based of the buildup in the area.

    We later determined the fluid leak was
    from the SHOCK, and not from the brakes.
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  13. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #163 TZ 750, May 8, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Now that I can afford this car, I can't see squat,
    so out comes the NIKON binocular microscope,
    which we use in my racing program.
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  14. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #164 TZ 750, May 8, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  15. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #165 TZ 750, May 8, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I went back, and with the microscope, and looked at the "bad shaft"
    in the shock again. Also the seal.

    You see the NIKON has no camera port, so I will just report what I saw:

    Shaft work - probably consistant with a leaking shock with 26,000 miles.

    no big problems with either part.
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  16. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #166 TZ 750, May 8, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Then went back at looked at the seals around
    the spherical bearing in the mounting area.

    Compared the old seals with the new supplied by RICAMBI.

    The cleaner, smaller pair are the new seals.

    I believe there is a clue here...........
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  17. NeuroBeaker

    NeuroBeaker Advising Moderator
    Moderator

    Oct 1, 2008
    38,793
    Huntsville, AL., USA
    Full Name:
    Andrew
    Hurrah!! :D

    Looks great!! :cool:

    Nikon make some nice microscopes. I've used some of their stuff in my laboratory research. :)

    :eek: What would make the old seals expand like that? :confused:

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
  18. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #168 TZ 750, May 9, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I am open to more scientific thinking on this,
    but here's where I'm going:

    The seals "expanded" from exposure (over time)
    to something they didn't like. We know it wasn't
    brake fluid - a natural choice - since there were
    no brake problems or leaks.

    It was also something FERRARI didn't expect the seal to
    come in contact with - or FERRARI would have specified
    another type of material for the seal.

    It may have - and I think probably - also degraded the seal
    at the top of the shock body, where the rod moves up and down.

    This allowed, over time, small amounts of the
    shock / power steering fluid to drool down and "wet" the lower seals.

    Hence the seals degrade.
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  19. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #169 TZ 750, May 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    OK: I little quick review, and then to the point.

    If you go pack to Post #45, you will see what I found in the bottom
    of the shock body after disassembly. If you go forward from that
    point for several posts, you can form the conclusion that the "debris"
    was in fact the "shock piston seal." Intended to be in the shock,
    but on the piston, and not at the bottom of the body.

    You will further see that not all the "seal" was there,
    the remainder probably blown out the rupture in the shock body.

    However, I think the missing part of the "seal" is integral to the explaination !

    You will remember that the "missing" portion of the seal seal
    would be the portion necessary to "fill in the gap" here:
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  20. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #170 TZ 750, May 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Now, imagine that the missing piece of "seal"
    is about this big, or perhaps a little smaller.

    (Could have been two (2) smaller pieces)
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  21. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #171 TZ 750, May 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    So, this piece of seal (or smaller) has been
    pretty well beaten up when it was partially
    "held" by the shock piston rings, top and bottom.

    Seems fairly flexable, perhaps more than originally.
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  22. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #172 TZ 750, May 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  23. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #173 TZ 750, May 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Assume that the volume of high-pressure
    fluid moving in the system has enough force
    to get this little bit of plastic into the opening
    of the banjo bolt that admits and releases
    the fluid from the shock body itself.

    I pushed it in with less than a pound
    of force - actually maybe a few ounces.

    Also assume that the reason the plastic is all found
    in the bottom in the first place it that the WRONG fluid
    was once put into the system, and that the
    WRONG fluid has caused all these seals to "expand."

    Here's the bit of plastic as it fits into the large hole in the banjo bolt.

    The small outlet holes allow fluid to move, still.
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  24. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #174 TZ 750, May 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Assume that the wheel and tire enter (as was my case)
    a large pothole.

    The wheel "drops" into the hole,
    and the shock "extends," drawing
    fluid into the shock body.

    As the wheel strikes the "exit" of the pothole,
    the piston inside the shock moves "down," trying
    to slow the movement of the wheel.

    As the piston decends, fluid flows out through
    the small holes.

    You will remember we measured these holes,
    and found they were about 13/64" in diameter.

    This calculates to about 0.032 square inches of area.
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  25. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    912
    #175 TZ 750, May 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

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