Valvetrain(?) ticking until warmed up | FerrariChat

Valvetrain(?) ticking until warmed up

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by jelliott, Aug 16, 2020.

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  1. jelliott

    jelliott Karting

    Mar 8, 2010
    88
    Seattle, USA
    Full Name:
    Joe Elliott
    Backing out of the garage yesterday I heard a ticking noise that initially reminded me of the sound one hears from the injectors in a batched EFI (e.g. L-Jetronic) system; I wasn't alarmed because I know that the lambda feedback on my Mondial 3.2's K-Jetronic is implemented via pulsed control of a solenoid valve (not unlike an electronic fuel injector), and immediately assumed that's what I was hearing. (The car is new enough to me that I wasn't surprised to be noticing a normal sound for the first time.) Several hours later, I'm back in the garage after a fairly lengthy errand (>150 mi round trip), performing the air conditioning recharge that a smart person would have done *before* setting out for a lengthy drive in 80°F weather. The car has been sitting for roughly an hour, but it's still warm, at least in terms of human discomfort associated with leaning over the engine and reaching one's hands down to the aircon service fittings. Again I hear a loud ticking at idle, seemingly coming from the forward cylinder bank. Unfortunately I was focused on recharging the air conditioning, so I didn't get out the stethoscope or do anything else to chase the noise, besides putting a (gloved) hand on the valve cover and not noticing any particular vibration that would correlate with the noise.
    By the time I finished with the aircon and returned my attention to the ticking noise... it was gone--seemingly a function of the engine getting back up to operating temperature. However, if I revved the engine slightly, the noise would come back--seemingly much less pronounced than before, but also somewhat drowned out by other engine noise, so hard to tell.
    Any thoughts as to what I'm hearing here? Besides my initial thought that (from the driver's seat) it reminded me of batched EFI (if you stick your head in the engine compartment of such a car), I could also say that it sounds like what you'd hear if a car with self-adjusting cam followers has a collapsed one. So am I just hearing excessive clearance on one follower? Why would this noise suddenly become noticeable?

    Thanks in advance,
    Joe ('86 Mondial 3.2 Coupe)
     
  2. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    A worn AC belt can make a ticking noise when cold. I could have sworn it was something in the valve train. Test by spraying WD-40 on the belt when it's cold. If the noise goes away, that's it.
     
  3. 365boxer

    365boxer Formula Junior

    Sep 30, 2004
    389
    La Drova, Spain
    Full Name:
    Nick
    It’s just static on the hard plastic belts, no need to replace just check condition and tension and carry on
     
  4. theunissenguido

    theunissenguido Formula 3
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jan 21, 2004
    2,372
    Argent/Brasil
    Full Name:
    Guido
    Better a drop of engine oil.WD-40 will dry out your belt.
     
  5. jelliott

    jelliott Karting

    Mar 8, 2010
    88
    Seattle, USA
    Full Name:
    Joe Elliott
    I was actually going to try a product I happen to have on hand that’s actually called “belt dressing”—seems like the right tool for the job—unless you guys really think that these unique belts warrant an actual lubricant.

    Thanks again!
     
  6. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,835
    Isle of man- uk
    Belt dressing used to cover up a problem, dreadful stuff. Any chance the exhaust manifold joint is on its way out ?
     
  7. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    The point is to identify the problem, not cover it up. The correct repair would be to replace the belt. The AC belt has a hard plastic component to it. The plastic cracks and makes the awful tapping noise. At least that's what happened to mine. Also, to replace the belt you're going to have to drop the AC pump, and wrap the belt around it first. If you try and install the belt with the pump in place, you will never get it on.
     
  8. ronfrohock

    ronfrohock F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 16, 2004
    3,939
    MA
    Full Name:
    Ron Frohock
    An AC belt slapping when cold sounds more like lightning striking over and over. Very scary!


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  9. FerrariJB

    FerrariJB Karting

    Jun 8, 2019
    69
    Netherlands
    Full Name:
    FerrariJB
    I had the same problem. Ticking when cold, I thought also valve damage. Change the belt and gone.


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    ronfrohock likes this.
  10. jelliott

    jelliott Karting

    Mar 8, 2010
    88
    Seattle, USA
    Full Name:
    Joe Elliott
    Well, I drove the car again today, so I took the opportunity to lean over the engine with belt dressing, WD-40, and stethoscope in hand both right after the cold start, and again after ~45 min of running errands. And... no ticking noise; not when cold, not when warm, not with the aircon engaged, not with the aircon off, not at idle, not revved up a bit.

    So, while totally inconclusive, I'm increasingly inclined to believe the belt theory; I can't think of anything else that could be so intermittent. The other clue here is that I recently changed the belts, and 1) I don't have any previous experience with these oddball wide-angle plasticky v-belts (and the manual only specifies tension for the water pump one) so I tensioned it as though it were a conventional 40° v-belt, and 2) the "new" belt I installed came with the car so I don't have any idea how long it had been on a shelf somewhere.

    Depending one what kind of resonance I might have been able to pick up with the stethoscope, I'm skeptical if I ever would have successfully isolated this to a snapping belt on my own, without your suggestions; I probably would have been perpetually worried about driving the car, and maybe even removed a cam cover out of paranoia! Thanks, guys!!
     
  11. ronfrohock

    ronfrohock F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 16, 2004
    3,939
    MA
    Full Name:
    Ron Frohock
    I lost almost an entire season of driving - out of fear - when my belt started snapping. It scared the hell out of me and I also didn’t know what it was. FChat to the rescue!

    I also had the same experiance when I had the exhaust chirping problem......



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  12. jelliott

    jelliott Karting

    Mar 8, 2010
    88
    Seattle, USA
    Full Name:
    Joe Elliott
    Follow-up question: How tight do these PolyFlex belts want to be, compared to a conventional v-belt? (Between the wider contact angle and Gates’ marketing of “high modulus polyurethane,” logic suggests they should be somewhat tighter, but I was reluctant to go there when I changed the belts; I’ve seen too many water pumps destroyed on other cars when doofus mechanics over-tension v-belts.)
     
  13. FerrariJB

    FerrariJB Karting

    Jun 8, 2019
    69
    Netherlands
    Full Name:
    FerrariJB
  14. jelliott

    jelliott Karting

    Mar 8, 2010
    88
    Seattle, USA
    Full Name:
    Joe Elliott
    That picture is different than my belt configuration, but dang--I didn't realize that this information would be in the Owner's Manual--that was a silly oversight!

    Here's what I've got in the owner's manual:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    It refers only to the Gates 150 tool, and doesn't provide the alternative force/deflection method for the aircon belt, so I'm probably just going to tighten it by one turn of the adjuster and keep an eye/ear on it (I didn't really want to have to take the fender liner and belt cover off, anyway). Is there an equivalent to the Gates 150 tool? If I understand correctly, it looks a lot like Porsche special tool #9131, but the Porsche tool doesn't have a scale, per se, just one notch with which the pointer lines up when the timing belt on your 928 is correctly tensioned.
     
  15. FerrariJB

    FerrariJB Karting

    Jun 8, 2019
    69
    Netherlands
    Full Name:
    FerrariJB
    What I do, given the km I drive per year (so replace belts in years instead of km), the V-belt would rather be a bit weaker than too tight so that you relieve the bearings.


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  16. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,835
    Isle of man- uk
    A good guide is to find the longest length and see if you can twist it in the middle of the run to 90 degree, too tight and will not do it
     

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