V-12 Engine into 308 Build, over on Grassroots | Page 20 | FerrariChat

V-12 Engine into 308 Build, over on Grassroots

Discussion in '308/328' started by dave80gtsi, Jan 16, 2019.

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  1. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Hard to say.....bearings for sure, but they could take the clutch shaft or the trans input extension I added, damage the case......all repairable and then I'll know I need a more 328 like outer bearing setup. I added an outer bearing on the bottom at the trans.....it will probably work.....but I'm not planning to take it road racing and really find out...autocross, maybe I'll get talked into a track day spreading out hot laps...probably just autocross though as I hate breaking stuff.
     
  2. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    Great stuff Mark. Eye on the goal
     
  3. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    I'm Soo tempted to take the alfa 4c power plant and drop it into a 308 or mondial... 4cyl sub 2L turbo, sits on it's own sequential gearbox like the 308's and makes crazy power. Weighs less then the factory lump...
    Punch it out to 2L and twist up the boost.. at least it'll still be italian...
     
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  4. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I don't personally go for cross-dressers but I don't judge either ;)

    I would put a ferrari engine into a fiat or alpha, but not the other way around...its like Kate Beckinsdale can where anything she wants and that's still OK.
     
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  5. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Hahaha...
    Like I said...a thought... Probably never happen.

    Though I recommend if one hasn't, go find a way to drive the 4C... ******** gocart... It's what I'd imagine a modern 308 would be. CF tub, ~300hp and 6 speed.. too much fun. And yes it's full of quirky italian frustrations...

    Back to the scheduled program, now.
     
  6. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Last night 1 cylinder got to the point that is was time to move it from the course stone line and into the fine line! I decided the original plan of .001" with fine stones was stupid, so it only needs another 1/4 to 1/2 thou. progress.......
     
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  7. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Kind of related. How do we get say my V12, Nick's V8 screamer, Aaron's turbo monster, maybe Mike's 4cyl turbo all in one place for a shootout? Maybe dyno, weight, the standard R&T stuff (skid pad, braking, slalom, 1/4 mile), maybe autocross, maybe hop lap.......maybe a SEMA booth? That would be kind of cool ....conspire quietly ahead of time so everyone "wins" something and get it in a magazine or a cool video.
     
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  8. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    After getting to 9 last night I figured for sure I'd be done done tonight...yeah, no, but all 12 are ready for finish and probably safe to use just as they are for finish just means a nice smooth cross hatch which SHOULD be another 10-15 minutes each. Tomorrow will hopefully bring this chapter to a close
     
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  9. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I put the other stones in hit all 12 but I I wasn't loving the finish and realized the stones I have are 80 and 180 grit so I ordered a 280 grit set that amazon says I'll have tomorrow....so the honing stretches another day.
     
  10. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    So....as I was wrapping up "all" the wiring, whos job was it to remind me about the nitrous button? I can't count on you guys for anything!
     
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  11. Jon Hansen

    Jon Hansen Formula Junior
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    Go Baby, Go!
     
  12. derekw

    derekw Formula 3
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    Nitrous button?? Either the rice rocket youtuber is getting to you or you desperately want to do this all over again... again!
     
  13. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #488 mk e, Feb 1, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2021
    There is more to the story. I've been only about 1/2 joking about adding nitrous for 10+ years now...but that wants the pistons setup looser and that tends to make them rattle a bit at start up. It also wants the rings gapped looser so leak down suffers and cranking compression and idle vacuum with it....so .....

    .....this build is getting gapless rings which takes the compression/vacuum issue off the table leaving rattling pistons. My piston spec sheet says .0035" min clearance which is right on the rattle line but if the pistons were 4032 alloy it would be loose enough for mild spray....and for some reason I thought they were, but they aren't they are 2618 which is stronger but expands more than 4032 so at 0035 spray would be (mostly) right out.

    As I was busy honing I was doing my normal check with a feeler gauge until its close then confirm with an inside mic because those are the tools I have. I wasn't loving the feeler gauge feel and the mic was telling me things I was sure I believed so I bought a low to almost mid range bore gauge and took off their indicator and fitting the really nice 10th indicator I have...and yeah, the hone job was coming out terrible.
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    the tops were the biggest and already a bit oversize, and inch down the lowest and 2-3 thou under the top, a little out of round too just to make it more fun.

    Well that s**ks.......
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    So I took the rough stones and cut them down to about an inch and a half in length and more rpm with a lot less pressure I got the 1st cylinder pretty good...but its now 1.2ish over my target size with a little more more left to do, so 1.5 over say.

    Another buddy is lending me an actual sunnen hone head. He basically says the one I have is a POS and what did I expect using it......so they should be right when they are done.

    hmmmmm...that led to a full day of internet reading. First thing, the piston spec sheet doesn't say set the pistons at 3.5 clearance, it says 3.5 min, and that is at the very high side of there specs based on bore size, probably because of my rpm which make heat. I set them up at 3.5 last time but all my cylinders came out scuffed. A 308 buddy also did his pistons at 3.5 and sent me this pic
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    He says he things it happened when he over heated a little....but overheating is a pretty common thing...and min mean minimum, they says another 1-3 may be needed in more extreme applications. The turbo guys set them up at 6 typically for example.

    The piston makers have all started supplying pistons like these with the skirts coated with a compressible/abradable coating and saying its basically god's gift to pistons because it lets you set the actually metal to metal clearance safe then to coating prevents rock and the rattle that comes with it. The rattle wears things out a bit faster but the big issue now seems to be it triggers the knock sensors all the newer cars have. The coating fixes that.

    All this is me getting to trying to justify using the cylinders which are going to finish at least 1.5, may 2 over my original size target.....which it turns out is a fine number and much safer than what I was planning. and It helps me justify sending the pistons out https://www.line2linecoatings.com/ for coating.......

    .......and it make it nitrous safe.
     
  14. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

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    ... like 900 hp isn’t enough...:D
     
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  15. Iain

    Iain F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2005
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    Methinks it might be more than enough for his drop gears !! :oops::oops:o_O

    Ferrari 308 V12 episode 584 coming soon: Re-engineering the transmission !
     
  16. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    The point of having a toy it to play with it right?....and I've been wanting paddle-shift setup, a blown-up trans would give me a reason to do it. :p

    I'm re-doing my honing setup before continuing. I ordered a chunk of aluminum and will use it to make a holder that matches the block so the cylinder is fully supported. Then that will get mounted on the coolant pump/tank setup from the my saw that that I haven't used in years to keep the stones are clean as possible and everything as cool as possible and maybe add a bucket as a spray guard to keep me and the shop floor as clean as possible. I'll be back to honing in a couple days.



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  17. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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  18. Cirorsi

    Cirorsi Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2016
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    I think I should do this Mark. I've spent a lot on trying to get my original tach to communicate with the 355 engine but the tach won't rev above 3,000 rpm. VDO had no problem. I forget, did you use a VDO unit?
     
  19. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I had Sun tach guts in the tach but now just have the original gauge mechanism and let the ECU replace everything else.

    I thought you had your tach fixed to work with the 355 ECU? sounds like it died again.

    What you need is this:
    http://www.dinoplex.org/tachoconversion/

    Its a board using a modern chip that shouldn't fail again....the problem I you kind of have to make it as I don't see any place to order it...but that is what you need. Email me if you want some help sorting it.
     
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  20. Cirorsi

    Cirorsi Formula Junior

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    Thanks for that info. I don't have much confidence in the avi shop that did the tach work. It's very odd that the tach works accurately below 3000 rpm but won't go above that threshold. I think I'm going to let West Valley Inst in Cali work on it.

    Great thread, you're so close to getting that beast of a 308 back on the road!
     
  21. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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  22. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Turned on the pump this morning and spray oil everywhere....added a bucket but there wasn't any good way to handle the bottom so it dribbled all over the floor....eventually put the whole setup inside a bin. Oil contained.

    I started with a scrap cylinder and spent all morning chasing out of round before realizing it was the clamping nuts on the fixture, hand tight is fine, touching it with a wrench is not! That means there is a delicate balance off holding the cylinder vs spinning the cylinder with the hone, but second attempted cylinder is within about .0005 total runout right now and looking pretty good. This was the one that needed to most metal removed so small mistakes wouldn't matter and right now it needs about another 1.5 thou to get to where the others will likely clean up.

    I'm not going to post a pic of me quickly removing out of round with a drum sander because doing anything like that would be WRONG and likely incur ferrari tech Wade's (who lent me a proper sunnen hone which is WAY better, as in not even comparable, to the $150 lisle I was using) wrath so .......but I hear you can remove 2-3 thou of out of round from 1 end of a cylinder in less than a minute that way....shhhhhhh ;)

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  23. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Mmmmmmm
    What about using a 'V' clamp style to hold the top plate... Like how exhaust flanges are done. Not like you need more work...
     
  24. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    similar idea, modified the fixture a bit tonight after measuring and seeing the hand tight was not always ok. So plate off, 6 small screws in, 2 inset a bit to hit the flats to prevent rotation. so that is good.

    Today I learned that even with a nice hone too much pressure cuts great and makes wonderful ovals Image Unavailable, Please Login

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  25. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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