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US Spec. 599 GTO Marketplace

Discussion in '612/599' started by tortesq1, Sep 18, 2015.

  1. tortesq1

    tortesq1 Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2012
    844
    New York
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    Stephen H. Frankel
    FWIW the RM Arizona auction was overall soft and several F cars were well bought. The RM site now shows the GTO being sold for $770K (I assume with the 10% buyers premium) presumptively after the auction was done. There appeared to be strong bidding right up to $700K at the auction. At $770K all in (with the 10% commission) I think its a well bought US spec GTO with only 1500 miles on her. Congrats to the buyer and hopefully they are an Fchatter.
     
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  3. glob1971

    glob1971 Formula Junior

    Jul 3, 2011
    424
    Czech Republic
    #127 glob1971, Jan 31, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2016

    Just checked, 10% commission included.

    Also "cheap" 599 Aperta at $1.182 K : http://www.rmsothebys.com/az16/arizona/lots/2011-ferrari-599-sa-aperta/1078359

    Seems to me prices are decreasing.
     
  4. elipinski

    elipinski Formula 3

    May 14, 2006
    1,390
    Full Name:
    Emanuel
  5. tortesq1

    tortesq1 Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2012
    844
    New York
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    Stephen H. Frankel
    I'd concur with you if the auction GTO was a 200 mile example in resale red (RC), but it was a 1500+ mile example in white with a black roof/wheels. A beautiful car but not exactly a neutral spec. Prices are not decreasing here in the US at all. This is the 1st US auction of a US spec GTO. There will be other GTO's auctioned and we will get a better handle in the near future on a true market value based on mileage and spec. FWIW at least here in the US ALL GTO's (other than the RM sale on Friday 1/19/16) have been sold through private sale or through dealers. While it might not matter to those that require a verifiable auction sale I as well as several other Fchatters can confirm that there have been multiple recent sales in the 8's including the mid-8's. Unless the car has "high" mileage (ie. give or take more than 1K miles or so per year) any US spec GTO in any color scheme for under approx. $770K (give or take a few bucks) is a bargain in this market. I'd also refresh your recollection that only 18 months ago we were tracking GTO's at $450k-$600K in the US. I think a slow methodical rise is exactly what owners want. My issue is the GTO becoming such a valuable car that its to scary to drive now for fear of damaging her. At $500K is was a very expensive toy but at what point does it become so valuable that you just don't want to drive her for fear of causing damage. Guess thats an issue for a separate thread.
     
  6. glob1971

    glob1971 Formula Junior

    Jul 3, 2011
    424
    Czech Republic
    I love mine so i can only agree with you Tortesq1 :)

    here is another auction on Tuesday at Retromobile in France. 41.000 km, i am curious what it will sell for. Estimation is pretty low, 400 to 600 K€ market is at +/- 700 K€ for a 5000/10000 km car.

    https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23262/lot/365/
     
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  8. speed racer

    speed racer Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2008
    1,445
    Burr Ridge IL.
    Full Name:
    PJ
    Personally, and i don't mean to be a downer but I believe the car market has topped out. No more QE so cash liquidity is drying up. The overall economic effect is like air coming out of a balloon. Higher interest rates on the horizon, stock market maybe +5% to negative for the year. No more 20% portfolio growth that everyone has been used to for the last 6 years. World macro is terrible and investor confidence in the market as bad as it has ever been including 2007/2008. Japan and Europe going negative on interest rates to bolster their economies. South America.Australia,Canada are starting to have serious currency issues because their commodity driven economies are in a in a downward spiral because China GDP had the slowest 4th Quarter since almost forever. U.S. 4th quarter GDP growth came in at 0.7% almost flat. I believe its time to sell if you want to lock in any gains on your GTO.
    It is one thing to drive a $500K Ferrari but driving a $750,000 Ferrari makes me nervous and lessens the enjoyment factor for me. At this point every driven mile takes more and more money out of my pocket. My attitude is that if i am not going to drive it then maybe its time to sell it especially given the increased risk affecting todays global markets. You can never go wrong with extra cash in your pocket especially in times like this.
     
  9. tortesq1

    tortesq1 Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2012
    844
    New York
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    Stephen H. Frankel
    For a five year old GTO 25,476 miles is unheard of in the US (which is sad). highest mileage GTO I've seen was approx. 10K last year for a GTO owned and driven in FL. which has good weather all year around with no snow. Be interesting to see what it goes for.
     
  10. tortesq1

    tortesq1 Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2012
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    Stephen H. Frankel
    I think any limited edition V12 F car will have this problem. Car starts out as a driver and them becomes much more valuable. What makes matters worse is that the GTO is an amazing very special car that pulls at my heart strings like nothing else I've ever driven or heard before. Its a car that will absolutely be sought after for generations. Maybe I/we should attempt to drive them less and get another less expensive F car as a pure driver (ie. a 458 Italia or 599 GTB). While I love my utilitarian 13 997 TTS cab. she's a sloppy pig compared to the GTO in every way except for straight line acceleration. I miss my 13 458 Italia that used to be my DD. I think if you sell your GTO now you will be kicking yourself in just a year or two's time, but I get the issue/desire to move on. I've thought about it much more now that my GTO has pushed up in value. We can revisit the issue every year and every year we will feel the same way except that the GTO will be worth a bit more every year.
     
  11. speed racer

    speed racer Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2008
    1,445
    Burr Ridge IL.
    Full Name:
    PJ
    I really couldn't have said it any better. Our GTO's are truly exceptional Ferraris. I have also thought many times about buying another sports car to lessen the desire to drive my baby. Unfortunately, I have been completely spoiled and every time I test drive something else to take the edge off. The experience just make me want to drive my GTO that much more. it is just so much more satisfying on so many different levels. That anything else out there just pales in comparison. All of us who currently own or have ever owned a GTO understand exactly what we are talking about and I am sure remember their time behind the wheel with very large grins on their faces.
     
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  13. glob1971

    glob1971 Formula Junior

    Jul 3, 2011
    424
    Czech Republic
    Reason I bought a 458 Speciale, to enjoy the 599 GTO even more without putting too many miles on 😍.
     
  14. M-individual

    M-individual F1 Rookie

    Oct 5, 2007
    2,937
    GTO, 458C, GT3RS
    I completely agree with you guys!!!!!!! I for one have my 991 GT3 which is truly exceptional value for money and a great drivers car. I love that car … but it will never ever get close to the sensation of the GTO … as for the track: I'm spoiled with the 458 Challenge although I do plan to continue driving the GTO despite the increase in value. Simply too much fun :)
     
  15. ROMO

    ROMO Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 18, 2008
    1,667
    WASHINGTON DC
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    ROMO
    I know of two GTO's which have been sold privately one in the low and one mid 800's. I'm not at liberty to share any other data.
     
  16. Mn-0127

    Mn-0127 Formula Junior

    Nov 14, 2013
    260
    Can you share mileage at very least? ��
     
  17. Tom Cab

    Tom Cab Karting

    May 10, 2015
    57
    Miami
    Full Name:
    Tom Cab
    I just purchased the yellow GTO stripe car at Ferrari of Beverly Hills 800 miles $850,000.
    I also know of a 300 to 500 miles car that sold in Ft Lauderdale for $925,000.

    Tom
     
  18. tortesq1

    tortesq1 Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2012
    844
    New York
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    Stephen H. Frankel
    Tom,

    Congrats on your new acquisition. She is a truly beautiful GTO. Drive her in good health.
     
  19. g4titan

    g4titan Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 6, 2010
    1,196
    Around
    Full Name:
    Nico
    Yes I'd love to see a picture of this beast! I''m a sucker for yellow GTOs!
     
  20. glob1971

    glob1971 Formula Junior

    Jul 3, 2011
    424
    Czech Republic
  21. tortesq1

    tortesq1 Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2012
    844
    New York
    Full Name:
    Stephen H. Frankel
    I concur 100% but the price does not totally shock me. First off its not US spec and I really don't know how many Euro GTO's exist but probably more than the 125 estimate for the US. I do believe that the US spec GTO market is strong for relatively low mileage examples (ie. give or take 500 miles per year or so) and very strong for extremely low mileage examples (under 1000 miles). I do not know if the Euro GTO market is weak or strong based on a particular Country of origin (ie. France/Germany/UK, etc.). Second (and most critically) this example had 25,476 miles (41,000 KM). I have candidly speaking never ever seen a US spec GTO with more than 10000 miles on it. I am 100% sure they exist but its a serious outlier to see a GTO with more than approx. 1000 miles or so on it per year. If you look at the GTO's for sale in the US the majority fit within this 1K miles per year construct.

    One can argue that this Paris auction Euro GTO was a great deal at the equivalent of $476,815 US (with premium). What would this Euro GTO have sold for had it had 10KM (6213 miles) ? 700K+ EU ? What if it had only 5KM (3106 miles) ? 750+ EU ? How about 2.5KM (1553 miles) ? 800 EU ? Of course I have no idea what the Euro GTO's sell for but I'm just making a point that this particular Euro GTO was an outlier with respect to mileage. We can all chime in that its so sad that people don't put alot of miles on their GTO's (for many reasons from they have many cars to choose from to weather issues to they desire it as a collector car, etc.) but the plain truth is that in the F car World the mileage is a HUGE issue unless the car is very old (ie. from the 60's). Speaking very plainly it might take the average US spec. GTO owner literally TWENTY FIVE (25) years to accumulate the kind of mileage the auction Euro GTO had on it (again assuming the average US spec. GTO owner drivers their steed approx. 1000 miles per year). Again, I'm not condoning not driving our cars, just pointing out the stark unforgiving reality of the market (particularly in the US) that a car driven that many miles in 5 model years is considered outrageously high. If this was a 2.5KM (1553 miles) Euro GTO and it sold for $476,815 I'd say something is radically off. The RM Arizona approx. 1500 mile GTO sold last Friday for $770K (with premium) so mileage DOES matter in the US and I'd make you a bet that it matters in Europe (and for the ROW GTO's) also. I'd also point out that the $770K price of the US GTO is a bottom line market price for that mileage at least here in the US. Some might even argue that the price for the Arizona GTO was light as the white/black roof/black wheels spec. wasn't necessarily to everyone's taste (ie. a neutral spec.) and a different spec. such as nero setoso over nero would have garnered more (haha sorry I couldn't resist). My 2 cents.
     
  22. RDI

    RDI Formula Junior

    Jul 11, 2009
    277
    Ontario Canada
    Strong quality information, but lets be honest the brotherhood who can afford to own and drive 599GTO ain't exactly worried about yearly stock returns haha. In other words the limited amount of cars per owners will always safeguard a 599gto, I just don't feel the current 599 GTO owners group is hard up for cash. In fact most owners will not even sell today for 3/4 of a million USA dollars.

    Regardless of price the 599GTO is arguably one of the best most reliable cars to come from ferrari. It will always be a winner for years to come.
     
  23. speed racer

    speed racer Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2008
    1,445
    Burr Ridge IL.
    Full Name:
    PJ
    Very true. My point is that a lot of the increased price activity over at least the last couple of years for classic cars has been driven by excess liquidity and extremely low interest rates. Today,global financial unrest, a stalled stock market due to lower profit expectations in equity's and the loss of liquidity (QE) I believe has driven a lot of the speculators looking for a quick flip out of the car market. In the past I have seen the same cars resold at three different auctions within a year using leveraged money borrowed at low interest rates. Those guys are no longer bidding prices up. American muscle cars that have increased the most over the years will be the first to see prices contract. But i have to believe the same will happen to the exotic car market as well over time. How long and how deep the contraction may be is the question. Then a period of price stability and then growth. Long term I agree the GTO will be a welcome addition to any stable and its's price will reflect that. But short term over the next couple of years I believe prices will drop. So if you are thinking about selling and want to lock in your gains. This may be the time to do it. Just my opinion and nothing more.
     
  24. speed racer

    speed racer Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2008
    1,445
    Burr Ridge IL.
    Full Name:
    PJ
    There seems to be a lot of interest in the sales prices of low milage GTO's. I have trouble understanding how the pricing of these cars are relevant to the GTO market as a whole. People who are paying a premium to buy a delivery mile or 200mi./500mi. GTO are buying an investment and i consider them to be collectors not drivers. Those of us who drive 1,000 miles a year are trying to be both. Trying to determine the median price based on milage / options is difficult because many of our cars are sold privately. Since your GTO like everything else in life is only worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. Prices will vary wildly and to really determiner the market you got to dip your toe in the water.
     
  25. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 17, 2001
    28,205
    Paris / Chicago
    Full Name:
    Andrew Menasce
    I think one reason people are not selling for $750k/$800k (and for a lot of the cars in general) has to do with how much taxes you have to pay. You end up giving close to $150k to uncle same on the $350k gain.
     
  26. speed racer

    speed racer Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2008
    1,445
    Burr Ridge IL.
    Full Name:
    PJ
    That is a very good point unless you have capital losses to offset the sale. For better or worse, thanks to 2007 I still have some cushion to the upside.
     
  27. tortesq1

    tortesq1 Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2012
    844
    New York
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    Stephen H. Frankel
    One of the problems is that the GTO is only 5 "model years" old. Most purchasers expect/desire a low mileage almost new car. As time goes on this will change. While the super low mileage cars will always garner a premium, a car with 5000 miles on her thats 10 years old IS low mileage although at 5 years old it just doesn't seem that way. At 30+ years old a 5000 mile car seems like it was simply never driven. Autosport Design has a 288 with approx. 5K miles on her ($2.8M AP) and she looks literally brand spanking new. A true time capsule. It takes a bigger man than me to own a car like a GTO for 30 years and not drive her more than 160 or so miles per year. Candidly I don't think I have the will power to own a car like my GTO for so many years and just not driver her AT ALL. Seems silly if your a disciplined investor, BUT to 99% of us its the passion that compels us to drive or cars. Like a vampire that smells blood, the pull of the GTO at our heartstrings is just irresistible. For that reason alone, it might pay to sell/dip in. I just can't resist when she's so lonely and literally begging me to drive her. I actually feel bad for her with this weather as I just know she wants to play in the snow (although it will never ever happen).
     
  28. tortesq1

    tortesq1 Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2012
    844
    New York
    Full Name:
    Stephen H. Frankel
    I'm not a CPA so correct me if I'm wrong, but for most of us the LTCG tax should be 20% + a 3.8% surcharge. Conversely, you can do a 1031 exchange and defer the tax due to a later date.
     

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