Unwelcome rust | FerrariChat

Unwelcome rust

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by hnichols, Jul 17, 2020.

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  1. hnichols

    hnichols Karting

    Apr 15, 2020
    191
    Chicago IL
    Full Name:
    Hugh Nicholson
    Hi guys,
    Discovered some unwelcome rot on the right-side trunk floor panel of my new-to-me 3.2 (uncovered when I accessed the cat ecu electronics). The first photo is from inside the trunk, looking down; the second is from under the car looking up. The good news is that the corrosion appears to be confined to this one panel (the third pic is of the corresponding piece on the left-side, taken from under the rear bumper).
    Question 1: is that part available (on the schematics on the Ricambi site all the pieces are labeled "insulation" suggesting that they have only the foam material, but the diagram looks like it's referring to the metal bits).
    Question 2: Any suggestions for the best way to protect the electronics in that compartment in the meantime?
    Question 3: Any speculation how it could be that this panel is so rotted while the surrounding metal appears unaffected?
    Many thanks!
    Hugh

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  2. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2013
    4,248
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    Tijn
    Many Mondials have it. The black roof and side spoilers/trims might leak under it. It often happens since it is rusted under there as well and that is the usually the place where it gets in and water gets trapped under the insulation. The constant heat and cool down of the muffler makes it worse.

    You do not need a part, a good welder can repair it properly, even with stainless steel :)
     
  3. hnichols

    hnichols Karting

    Apr 15, 2020
    191
    Chicago IL
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    Hugh Nicholson
  4. greatscott73

    greatscott73 Formula Junior

    Sep 1, 2017
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    Howard Scott
    I think #31 is just a piece of insulation. That rust (if I'm looking at it right) looks like a piece of the trunk floor. Probably won't find one of those unless you get one cut off of a wreck. You could contact Stefan Redbay or Ferrparts and see if they might be able to accommodate you it you want genuine Ferrari metal. If not, a skilled bodyman can always figure out a way to put it back together.
     
  5. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2013
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    Italian metal is not the best IMHO. If you get such a piece it would still need to be welded in. Depending on the rottenness you cut it out for the most easiest way to weld. A good car bodyman/welder would know

    The diagram does not show the body. Merely the insulation and the aluminum bits.

    This is the correct piece Part 61742700 (US version):
    https://www.ferrariparts.co.uk/part/ferrari/61742700?id=70877
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    Keep in mind you have an Euro and US version! Below the Euro version (Part 61721800) so you can see the difference.

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  6. hnichols

    hnichols Karting

    Apr 15, 2020
    191
    Chicago IL
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    Hugh Nicholson
    Yes, it's definitely the US version; I didn't realize it was part of a larger piece. Getting a good welder seems to be the way to go.
    It's somewhat reassuring to know that the original part is around $500 or so; I'm hoping I can get it repaired for less than $1K.

    Thanks!
     
  7. hnichols

    hnichols Karting

    Apr 15, 2020
    191
    Chicago IL
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    Hugh Nicholson
    Quoted between 3 and 4K. Yikes. The body man said it was a pretty straightforward job, just incredibly time consuming, as fabricating replacement panels and butt-welding requires tons of patience. Might be a DIY job for yours truly.
     
  8. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2013
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    Oh wow! This repair would not cost more then 300 to 500 USD in The Netherlands for the affected. IMHO he is calculating Ferrari TAX.

    If you would order the original piece and let it weld in that labor would not be more then 1000 euro's (a day's work sort of speak)

    perhaps others on the US continent can confirm or revise the prices I just mentioned.
     
  9. hnichols

    hnichols Karting

    Apr 15, 2020
    191
    Chicago IL
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    Hugh Nicholson
    Thanks for the perspective. I'm sure I could have it done more cheaply here, too, but at a certain point you wonder whether it will be done properly. That's why I'm leaning towards doing it myself.
    BTW, I asked the guy what it would cost if I sourced the part, and he said that if anything it would be more expensive. Since 7/8 of that piece is unaffected, they would just cut a bit off of it anyway.
     
  10. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,835
    Isle of man- uk
    Its all down to how easy it is to get access to for the welding- best to cut out the rust and make a thin cardboard pattern to see how big the piece is, it will also give u an idea of access for the welding
     
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  11. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2013
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    It is a petty straightforward area :) take out the trunk's insides, bumper, muffler an heat shield.

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  12. hnichols

    hnichols Karting

    Apr 15, 2020
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    Hugh Nicholson
    That's a great view -- I think I can tack weld custom cut sheet metal to the outside. Hopefully I won't have to remove the exhaust.

    On a related note: do any of you guys know if there's a piece of insulation at the very bottom of the floor plan on the right, protecting the electronics from the exhaust heat? I think that would explain how that area rusted so badly -- the material got waterlogged and kept the metal underneath wet. But there was no piece of insultation there in my car and someone on another thread said that there was none in his either.
     
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  13. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2013
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    The bumper is only mounted on the back from the inside (the 4 hole you see on the pic). On the sides it has a sliding mechanism. One tip once unbolted take it of with 2 people as the bumpers can easily crack if it bends. Before taking of the bumper remove these little aluminum flaps on each side in the inner fenders.

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  14. hnichols

    hnichols Karting

    Apr 15, 2020
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    Hugh Nicholson
    Removed the bumper and the tailpipes today. The good news is that the rusty area in the lower right corner is very accessible. Bad news is that there's a bit more towards the center of the car that curls around towards the floor piece that is riveted onto an (unaffected) piece beneath it. I'll post a photo tomorrow.

    In the meantime, any tips on removing the trunk carpet in the 3.2? It looks like a single piece that is tucked under the rubber trunk seal. I'd like to remove it without destroying anything. Does trunk seal lift out?
     
  15. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
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    Try a wallpaper steam stripper to see if it melts any glue it might be held down with
     
  16. hnichols

    hnichols Karting

    Apr 15, 2020
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    Hugh Nicholson
    You mean the glue attaching the rubber seal to the car, right?

    I'd like to avoid simply ripping the carpet away from the seal (first photo):
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    Second photo: here's the part I'm a little unsure of, specifically, the horizontal part. I'm sure I can weld from inside the trunk, but I'm worried if the rust extends too far inside, I won't be able to get epoxy primer in the narrow gap between the upper and lower panels.
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  17. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
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    You will have to just cut out the rust back to good metal, then work out how to weld it. I would not worry about the carpet, it can always be stuck back down or renewed. Totally pointless doing half a job
     
  18. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie

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    oh my! can you make a wider pic of the area. In principle all is very accessible, at least on a Euro version.
     
  19. hnichols

    hnichols Karting

    Apr 15, 2020
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    Cut into the Ferrari today: Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
    The third photo shows the tricky part. This is looking directly down into the trunk from the rear bumper. The thin sheet of pitted steel lies on top of a panel underneath which is itself unaffected by rust. Cutting a patch to fit shouldn't be a problem, but protecting the underside is, as it won't be accessible for priming. I'm considering welding a piece of thin stainless steel, But, apart from the challenge of mig-welding stainless to mild steel, my concern is that even a stainless weld will be vulnerable to rust. Any suggestions? Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  20. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

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    Hard to visualize, Can you not just spray the primer in using an aerosol can.
     
  21. hnichols

    hnichols Karting

    Apr 15, 2020
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    Hugh Nicholson
    I probably made it hard to visualize by sliding a thin piece of metal in between the lower piece and the corroded piece above -- it's clearer in the first photo.
    The issue is the underside of the piece to be welded in, which almost touches the piece below it.
     
  22. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
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    Can you weld it in from the top and put a plumbers heat mat under it to protect the body under it.
     
  23. hnichols

    hnichols Karting

    Apr 15, 2020
    191
    Chicago IL
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    Hugh Nicholson
    I'm not familiar with a plumber's heat mat -- is it a thin piece of copper?
    Yes, welding a piece isn't my concern. It's protecting the underside of the piece I weld in. Once in place some of it won't be accessible for priming. Since there's an overhang, about half of the underside surface will be accessible. It's the other half, though, along with the weld seam itself, that will be blocked by the piece underneath.

    That's why I plan on cutting away the absolute minimum, leaving somewhat pitted metal. There seem to be three options:
    1. use stainless steel (welding stainless to mild steel might not be easy, particularly for someone who has never welded before. And even using stainless wire, the welding process will compromise the corrosion resistant properties of the stainless).
    2. apply epoxy primer on the underside of the piece I weld in before welding it (although the heat from the welding process will probably disintegrate the primer).
    3. weld the seam on the back side and pry open a slight gap and inject primer between the two plates before welding everything up (I fear the gap will still be two small, however).
     
  24. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
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    We used to use stainless electrodes to weld up steam cuts on steel parts, then file off the excess. This is handy as the stainless does not penetrate the steel too deeply. A plumbers mat is a 12x12 flexible mat made of a flame proof material you wrap around something you want to keep the gas torch flame away from.
     
  25. theunissenguido

    theunissenguido Formula 3
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    Jan 21, 2004
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    Guido
    Put the new sheet where you allready put zinc primer on. During welding the zinc will cover the welded parts. And in 30 years you can do it again, no problem.
     
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