Turbocharging my F355 - Or how to remove any market value from your F355 remaining. | FerrariChat

Turbocharging my F355 - Or how to remove any market value from your F355 remaining.

Discussion in '348/355' started by Markphd, Oct 23, 2015.

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  1. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    While this is not my first rodeo with turbocharging, I am not really a "car guy" either. My day job is being a clinical psychologist. That said, I know a few things:

    1. I don't plan or desire to sell my F355.
    2. I like to tinker with things.
    3. I like cars that are unique and reflect the creativity of their owners.
    4. I got a car that essentially had a motor that was toast.

    So what to do? Naturally rebuild the whole damn thing. It has a number of things that I have found bad along the way and I had some decisions to make... return to stock, or blaze a different path that reflected my creativity. It was actually a hard decision to make, as I do believe that I have a responsibility not to lose the aspects of the car that make it "special" in the first place. Believe me, several people have suggested slamming an LS motor in it... which to me would be completely wrong. What makes the F355 is it's high RPM fast revving nature, so I wanted something that would accentuate that, not destroy it.

    So I have decided to turbocharge it.

    Objectives:

    300-350 ft/lbs torque and 400-500 HP at wheel (at 8250 RPM: 300 ft/lbs = 470 HP; 318 ft/lbs = 500 HP; 350ft/lbs = 550 HP).
    Spool-up: 3,500-4,500 RPM, 10 PSI by 4k would be perfect.

    Most people would suggest a pair of small/medium turbine, large waste gate, moderately large compressor, ball bearing turbochargers with twin water to air intercoolers, and a high end programmable engine management system. I agree, they have arrived at an answer that is complex and expensive, but generally correct.

    No doubt, the twin turbo answer will work, but is there another answer?

    I would argue that there is another answer, and although it is not as "elegant" a solution, it has it's own advantages. The best analogy I can make is the difference between using a ratchet wrench and a speed handle. Sometimes is important to have a specific tool, and other times, not and may even slow you down.

    So unlike most people following the conventional wisdom. I will be running a single journal bearing oil cooled rather large turbocharger with single intercooler 11x11" core with a 2.5" inlet and 2.5" outlet. I will be managing the engine with Megasquirt MS3-Pro as my engine management unit with 650cc/min injectors.

    Turbocharger details:

    Compressor wheel 68.7mm/97.8mm A/R=0.66
    Turbine Wheel 87.4mm/77mm A/R=1.05
    Inlet:Divided T-4 Outlet: 3.5" V Band

    Wastegate:
    Dual 38mm wastegates set for 6-10 PSI
    boost control solenoid will be used to manage wastegates above base pressure

    Intercooler
    11x11x2.5" core
    17x11.5x2.75" overall
    11" SPAL 800 CFM 11" Low Profile Fan

    Header to turbine inlet:
    (2) 2.5" V-band to divided T-4 flange

    Things that I have not decided yet.

    1. How much to lower static compression ratio vs changing intake valve timing to reduce dynamic compression ratio.

    2. Am I crazy... ;)
     
  2. cuneo

    cuneo Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 20, 2006
    2,454
    3. Yes. Good luck! Will be amazing if it all works.
     
  3. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jun 10, 2007
    6,677
    Lake Villa IL
    This would be my area of expertise.

    That being said I would not do it but look forward to your results :)
     
  4. madturk

    madturk Formula 3
    BANNED

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,508
    Williston, ND
    Full Name:
    Seyhan Kilincci
    2. Yes but that's how we like it.
     
  5. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    #5 Markphd, Oct 23, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
    You would not turbocharge at all? Or do you just disagree with specific choices?

    I am always open to hearing a different opinion. It will be interesting. The great thing is that I don't really have a ton of money invested in the turbo and intercooler, so if I decide that twins are a better idea, I can easily adjust fire and not feel bad about it later.

    I suspect that I may have gone too big on the turbine side and it may hit (as you stated earlier) like an F40.... which would not entirely offend me. My Miata which had a T3/T04E compressor was essentially half the size and made about 320 RWHP... spooled late (4500 RPM) and pulled like a beast all the way to 8500 RPM. Strangely enough the BP4W mazda 1.8 liter motor is surprisingly similar in regards to cam timing with regard to the intake valve closure and overlap (although I am quite sure the Ferrari head flows better).
     
  6. GTUnit

    GTUnit Karting

    May 25, 2014
    143
    Socal
    Full Name:
    Jack
    Nope. Go for it and if you are is SoCal I will help you :)
    What made you decide on a single? I like they packaging and symmetry of a dual setup.
    Appears that a dual fits in a F355 package quite well. More plumbing and a bit heavier probably.
     
  7. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    I decided on the single for a number of reasons:

    When I realized there are benefits of running a long tube header on a flat plane motor provided I could avoid reversion in the system, that sort of sealed it for me.

    These were the other reasons:
    1. A single turbo versus a dual system has nearly 50% of the stuff to break. Having less stuff that can break will increase reliability. On a twin turbo system, you lose one turbo and essentially the car is down.
    2. There is a very inexpensive set of turbos that are all T4 twin scroll units that will prevent reversion between the two banks of 4 cylinders. The location of the old bypass valve is a perfect spot for a single large turbocharger.
    3. This high central location also places the turbo high enough to make returning the oil to the sump trivial with regard to the oil outlet on the turbo. I will concede that mounting it lower near the heads would provide several distinct advantages (faster spool for starters).
    4. I will not have to build turbo headers, I can use my existing headers without modification. I simply need to make a set of 2.5" pipes from the collector to the turbo inlet on each side.
    5. It won't melt anything where I am planning on putting the turbo... having turbo's down near the CV joints and engine mounts already causes enough problems with heat management.... two glowing turbo's much WORSE!!!
    6. The 97 Ferrari relies on a single MAF, so rather having to route two intake streams into one central location, I can use a single outlet to feed a single inlet. Once again, less stuff to break. Fewer sensors and probably minimal gain in performance for the work.

    I really look at it from the standpoint of whether the incremental gains are worth the effort. I suspect that if I were making a cost no object system, yes, I might go with a twin setup, a sequential turbo setup, or even a twin charged (supercharger/turbo hybrid). Hell, I would even consider a KERS system, if it were feasible. Unfortunately, I do have a number of constraints. To me the above reasons were compelling enough to risk going down a different road. Yes, I am in San Clemente (SoCal).
     
  8. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    28,537
    socal
    if this was a road race car all the extra power would need to be balanced by probably double the cost in chassis development. Turbo lag is killer on streetcars and roadrace racecars. If this was a streetcar the 355 already breaks most speed limits before 2nd gear. So if one is building a stoplight to stoplight killer I would go with judicious use of nitrous. It will build uncompromising torque and hp to the wheels while being easily concealed or removed for biannual smog inspection and while off does not alter smog or drivability. OEM's spend huge time with advanced tools to ecu tune. It is not easy to do it well.
     
  9. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 18, 2008
    6,004
    Indio Ca/ Alberta
    Full Name:
    Grant
    Do you think the motor would handle an extra 100 hp with nitrous? It seems the motor is high strung allready but i have no facts to back that up.
     
  10. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    #10 Markphd, Oct 24, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2015
    Thankfully, I do not have to smog the car. It's registered in a state that does not require emissions testing and being that I am currently on active duty, I do not need to smog the car in an unfriendly state. That said, I would like to (at some point) see if I can make it comply at the tailpipe with regard to what the factory emissions were, provided I do not have to sacrifice reliability or safety to achieve the goal.

    Nitrous is always an easy solution, the only problem with nitrous is that the bottle is always empty when you need it most. Just ask the chump who had to race my turbo Miata 3 separate times with his nitrous fed Trans Am, before I caught him with a full bottle and he was finally able to beat me.

    Would the F355 handle a 100 HP shot? To answer the question about the F355 and nitrous:

    Yes, above 4000 RPM, I have little doubt the F355 can handle a 100 HP N2O shot. It is low RPM nitrous use tends to kill motors, hitting a 100 shot at 2,000 RPM would be much more likely to hurt the motor. A 100 HP shot of nitrous at 2000 RPM is a 262 ft/lb of torque increase over stock, but at 4000 rpm it is only an increase of 131.3 ft/lbs (and only 65 ft/lbs at 8000 rpm). Horsepower is a measurement of work over time, but torque is the amount of force per turn of the motor. Keep the HP the same between two motors, but halve the RPM of one of the motors and that slower motor must generate twice as much force to make the same HP as the one spinning faster.
     
  11. KMR968Turbo

    KMR968Turbo Formula 3

    Nov 11, 2007
    1,001
    Calgary, Alberta
    Full Name:
    Erik
    There was a turbocharged 355 Challenge for sale for quite some time. Was a difficult car to sell and eventually I believe it went for 1/3 less than a comparable none turbo car

    For me I wish there was a supercharger for it. Keep the exhaust sound but add power.
     
  12. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    #12 Markphd, Oct 24, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2015
    You need one or two tools to really tune an engine for power and general drivability...

    1. Individual cylinder EGT's
    2. Wide band Air Fuel meter

    That's it.

    To tune like the OEM's do it, you need to have a dyno cell, chassis dyno, or other method to replicate the widest range of driving conditions. This is where you can really dial in drivability at the edges of the engines maps, but one can do this with datalogging and autotuning as well.

    I am not saying that OEM's don't spend a lot of time on ECU mapping and development, but it's not for the reasons that most people think, and it's certainly not to get the car to run decently in southern California. It really isn't that hard to tune a car until you have the constraints placed on the OEM's. First, OEM's spend a lot of time is in optimizing the actual engine design in the first place to manage heat and airflow throughout the wide range of actual conditions while having to meet multiple conflicting objectives simultaneously (Fuel Economy, Emissions, Longentivity, Power, Smoothness, cold start, etc, etc). To be honest, thankfully, I don't have the same constraints, but a limited subset of them. I can choose to sacrifice fuel economy for longentivity or power. I can choose to ignore emissions in favor of power and smoothness. I am not worried about the catalytic light off time. Cold start performance is where many OEM's spend countless hours to meet EPA emission goals. I have had to help design and engine aftermarket turbo systems to meet CARB rules with regard to emissions (it's not easy). Second, I don't have to worry about performance in the Artic circle, variations in fuel quality, and all the other environmental variables like high altitude performance and other strange environments that OEM's are forced to deal with.
     
  13. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    Thankfully, I am never selling my F355. (Seriously, Never.) I briefly considered a twin screw supercharger, but honestly, it will sound more like an F355 with the turbo.
     
  14. tres55

    tres55 F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 18, 2012
    3,551
    Canada
    I look forward to seeing the results of this build. I'd personally go with twins though...just for symmetry's sake. :D

    A friend of mine who builds high horsepower cars is pushing me to build a twin turbo setup for my 355. I'd probably consider it if I found myself in the position of needing to do a ground up rebuild of the motor anyway, but as it sits the OEM output is more than enough to get me in trouble as someone mentioned earlier.

    In the end, I think one would be better off grabbing a V12 Ferrari if they wanted gobs more power. For the cost of a decent 355 and all the modifications required to reliably get it up to 500hp, you could pick up a nice used 599 GTB and have 612hp at your disposal...and it wouldn't be too hard to get it up to 650+ with some tinkering while retaining reliability.

    To each their own though. My favourite 348 is that twin turbo one that's for sale on eBay right now. That car is done right. :)
     
  15. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    The artfulness of a twin and the beauty of symmetry is not lost on me. I am hoping to preserve that in a slightly different way. I doubt that anyone would argue that the dual air boxes on the 97 feeding into the single MAF sensor doesn't not address the beauty and need for symmetry that is so important in building a car that looks "right". I agree with that.

    The question then becomes, how does one keep symmetry and balance in a single turbo system. This is partially why I opted for two wastegates. I have not decided on one or two BOV's, utilizing two does achieve symmetry, however using one prior to the MAF may be more appropriate.

    Although I am opting for 2 wastegates, I have not entirely decided how I am going to handle the exhaust fully yet. Half of me wants a similar to the 458 Italia or F40 3 pipe system (Except with two wastegate outlets and a single main exhaust), the other half of me wants to put four exhaust tips in the factory location with one waste gate and one exhaust on each side. Retaining the good looks of the car and the engine bay is extremely important to me, as the reason I was drawn to the car was the engineering beauty. I don't want to lose that in the least.
     
  16. Andy 355

    Andy 355 Formula Junior

    Jun 2, 2013
    434
    Sydney
    Either way this is going to be both epic and expensive!! Years ago i had a 911sc with a 75hp nitrous shot. Stock everything. Ran 12.7sec quarter mile. Back in the 90s it was one of the fastest street cars around. IF i was to go for a increase in power,i would recommend a proper computer controlled nitrous system at 50hp and experiment with that,simply because you can remove it all when you are done. Sure the turbo would be as good but the mods to the car and expense would be a deal breaker. To finish off,if you want a faster ferrari then just buy one. Ask rifledriver if you dare!! ha,ha.
     
  17. jimmym

    jimmym Formula 3

    Sep 30, 2008
    1,990
    Northeast U.S.
    Full Name:
    Jim
    I agree. Twins look a lot better.(228GTO, F40, 993TT, 996TT, 997TT with variable geometry to improve low end response, and BMW 335xi).

    I don't know if you thought about this, but how about a blower? No lag. They do make supercharger set ups that have similar packaging to turbos.
     
  18. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    100,199
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap
    #18 PAP 348, Oct 24, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    A friend is selling a custom Nizpro 355 twin turbo kit here in Australia. The car ends up making 550KW in it's final tune on pump fuel.

    I had a magazine article with the complete build/story in it but I can't find it anymore.

    The kit was custom made to suit a 355 Spider here in Australia that ran 10 sec 1/4 mile times.

    The car was 100% stock, but eventually it burnt the clutch out so it was replaced.

    The kit was removed 6 years later as the car was to be sold in stock condition again.

    Here is the video of the car running down the 1/4 mile doing an 11.3.

    If anyone is interested in the kit, please send me a PM and I will forward on the details.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g1bC3YeGz8
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  19. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 14, 2011
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    Tim Dee
    Do it anyway you like, thats most of the fun figuring it out.
    Just pay attention to pulling a vacuum balancing the block, the 355 likes a good suck below the belt.

    :)
     
  20. Eric C

    Eric C F1 World Champ

    Mar 20, 2009
    10,947
    St. Louis, MO
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    Eric
    Do you already have a tuner lined up? I'd ask him what he suggests for management first. (I'm sure you already did). I've learned the hard way and ended up having to fly in a tuner every time I decided to change things up.
     
  21. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    28,537
    socal
    Nitrous can be a hassle but you can make it easy too. Some advantages are you it is proven to be used on stock motors. Many turbo retrofits are done best with o-ringed heads and reductions in compression. Those are expensive "undo's" if you want to go back to stock. NO is also proven to work fine with 1000rpm cut in as long as you don't go crazy on the gas. Today there are progressive NO controllers to add in progressive NO nearly right at throttle. But even in my dark days of NO in the 80's we had enough NO to double HP and cut it 100% at 100rpm with no issues.

    Staying full of NO can be an issue. A 10lb bottle gives about 2-3 mins of 100% throttle on most streetcars. That is really a long time for any streetcar. It is useless on a road race course and illegal for any race class I know of. A giant "D" cylinder of NO+ is cheap and can be stored at home. You freeze the 10lb bottle in your freezer then hook your D to it and the magic of chemistry causes the NO to flow to the little bottle with no effort. There is really no reason to have an empty NO bottle in your car. There is no good place close to the motor for a 10lb NO bottle. It is a long but doable run from the front bonnet and purge valves are available.

    Finally, with NO you have the elegance of the 355 engine with just some small additional plumbing as opposed to intercooler turbo BOC, wastegates and all the rest. I think of NO as elegant speed. NO or turbo or supercharger are definitely different stroke for different folks.
     
  22. jimmym

    jimmym Formula 3

    Sep 30, 2008
    1,990
    Northeast U.S.
    Full Name:
    Jim
    Rotrex makes superchargers for the 360 and 430.


    Rotrex A/S
     
  23. Eric C

    Eric C F1 World Champ

    Mar 20, 2009
    10,947
    St. Louis, MO
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    Eric
    I don't know. I went with a blower on my old NSX and that thing spooled like a tortoise with rigamortis and got heat soaked quick! Ended up going with a GT37R single w/ meth injection and couldn't have been happier. Had basically instant boost, but killed the tires. Just from a roll on, it would haze the tires at 3,000 rpm's. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwdJCWZdLYU

    Another thing, a turbo will be a lot easier on the car then a blower or nitrous.
     
  24. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jun 10, 2007
    6,677
    Lake Villa IL
    Both actually. I bought my first F355 after selling my 1000rwhp 07 Z06 (twin turbo) and I think the car in naturally aspirated form is perfect.

    No it isn't going to do highway speed burnouts but overall I find it very enjoyable and would not want to change it.

    I have built a ton of turbo systems and even going from a single 76/75 to twin GT35R's on a 5.7 liter engine, the difference in response is amazing. Twins are much much faster.

    Anything I turbo in the future will use relatively smaller twin turbos just because I like the way they drive. (I'm doing a 6.2 LSA engine with twin garrett 3076r's for my 57 Cadillac).

    With aftermarket engine management I would just toss the maf and tune it speed density. Now you have a charge pipe to each plenum like the system pictured above ^^^. This leads to the next area I'm slightly concerned about. How much boost are the plastic plenums going to sustain over time? Quite a lot of surface area for a part that wasn't even designed to deal with a vacuum. Maybe this is a non issue, not sure.
     
  25. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 14, 2011
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    Tim Dee
    #25 SoCal1, Oct 24, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I have the plenums off right now
    No way they will work.

    They also have a vacuum pull for the bottom end so if you pressurize it it expect the bottom end to get boosted also.
    You will need to pull a crankcase ventilation somewhere or vacuum balance into the exhaust
    You can see the hoses attached including the idle thingys
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