TSN/JV's angry take on MS legacy | Page 2 | FerrariChat

TSN/JV's angry take on MS legacy

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by RocketBoy, Aug 17, 2006.

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  1. Senna1994

    Senna1994 F1 World Champ
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    Excellent post Andreas.
     
  2. Remy Zero

    Remy Zero Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Apart from the F1 fans all over the world, I am sure that all those people who benefited from MS's charitable activities and donations - orphans in Lima, and his homeland, Germany itself and the tsunami areas, UNESCO, etc etc - will fondly remember him.

    We "don't see his true character", yet JV knows him well enough to dare saying that he is not "a great human being". Unbiased indeed.

    Who or what are you then, Jacques?

    Someone who'll be forgotten much more quickly and easily than MS, just to start with.

    JV didn't race in 2004. has anyone here missed him? count me out. gosh, if JV really means what he says, i wonder what will ppl think of him...i mean, surely, if u can't remember a 7 time champion....can u remember someone with just a world title? besides, he has done nothing over the past 9 years or so...just crashing cars.
     
  3. asds3x

    asds3x Karting

    Oct 11, 2004
    149
    Many current and ex drivers have said the same thing, automotive writers have said the same, even worse. A recent poll of Euro's said the same thing.

    So all these people are wrong and only the Big Chin's supporters are right. The drivers and writers are more connected to the sport than a internet chat room.
     
  4. imperial83

    imperial83 F1 Rookie
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    Champions who really give do not want much in return. Michael is not only the greatest racer of all time but he has also given more time, resources and money to great causes than most can imagine. That is because he does not wear is heart on his arm and market what he has done for the media.

    Nothing JV can say will take that away. It is just dissapointing to see words like that from a Villeneuve.
     
  5. scuderia15

    scuderia15 Formula Junior

    Aug 18, 2005
    272
    I think the only reason why Schumy wouldn't be regarded in the same breath as Senna and Gilles Villenueve is because of some of the crap drivers he competes with. People like Jacques are only talking like great drivers, not driving like great drivers. They are turning the sports emphasis from driving skills and engineering prowess into a game of he said she said,and as a result they are tarnishing the sport at the same time. If he could outdrive Schumacher, then his opinion wouldn't be out of line.
     
  6. bernardo66

    bernardo66 The Crazy Cat Man
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    ...he did not have an untimely death like Gilles and Ayrton. And we all know that any champion's untimely death on the track, means legend status by default.
     
  7. RocketBoy

    RocketBoy Formula 3

    Feb 13, 2004
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    Yes Franco, Damon did come into my mind but I liked his efforts in winning the championship after he knew he was going to be sacked by Williams. Besides, his role was of a test driver more so than a top flight #1 so him winning and bringing Murrary Walker to tears is more extraordinary than highly touted JV IMO. Damon did give the flamboyant team Jordan its first win, almost with Arrows too. JV's BAR efforts I think don't compare as much. Would a Canadian champion ever compare to that of a Brit in the press or hearts? No matter the bloodline I doubt it so Hill remains a fighter in my mind whereas JV just a King who fizzled out in bad taste and manners. His latest comments such as that in this article, only add to that tragic fall theory I have.
     
  8. GoFerrari28

    GoFerrari28 Formula 3

    Jun 16, 2004
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    Absolutely. JV won his world championship DESPITE the fact that Shumacher tried to take him out and failed, and for as long as MS lives there will be fans of F1 who will remind others that he was a cheat and a dirty driver, with plenty of video footage to back it up. JV earned his WDC and with it the right to criticise his opponents if it warrants.
     
  9. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Since I'm following some of the Euro press I find it hard to believe that the majority of racing fans could forget MS.

    And just for the record (and people on here know that anyway): I'm not a MS supporter and have often criticized him in the past (I was one of the first to cry wolf at the Monaco qualifying incident). But I rather look at myself as somebody who loves F1 and with the most neutral perspective I'm trying to put on, for the life of me I can't imagine how anybody could possibly strike MS from history and forget about him. The man owns practically all the records. That by itself will give reporters enough fodder to talk about it for years.

    MS has done some dirty driving, no doubt, but it would be utterly wrong to say the seven titles have fallen into his lap. He worked hard for them. People pretending he hasn't existed really are the ones disconnected from F1 history.
     
  10. TurboFreak650

    TurboFreak650 Formula 3

    Jul 10, 2004
    2,363
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    JV has been pathetic for years and isn't even a speck of dust on Michael's visor. Do be quiet and disappear into (well deserved) obscurity JV. :rolleyes:
     
  11. chaa

    chaa F1 Veteran

    Mar 21, 2003
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    His cars have been pathetic. He has proved what he is like in a working car.
     
  12. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I'm putting on my flame suit for this one.

    Regarding the "nobody likes MS other than you guys on this site" comments, you have to bear in mind that most Europeans have a very different attitude than most Americans. Over there, successful people are usually scorned and most of them don't like to see someone doing well. If the person doing well is German, you can multiply the sentiments by about a thousand. If the person isn't self-deprecating, it's the icing on the cake. We see a fair bit of it on this site too - nobody can argue with MS's driving ability, so what do we get instead? We get bleating about how he never had any real competition, and he "cheated", and he's not as good as he thinks he is, and he's no comparison to Senna or Gilles or whoever. We all know that's a bunch of BS but the alternative is to acknowledge the massive talent of the cold calculating German, and many don't want to do that.

    Did MS act any differently than Senna in terms of dirty driving? I don't think so. We just look back upon Senna with a forgiving eye and chalk it up to the humorous short temper or the man. Because it's true or because he's dead? Most people say Stevie Ray Vaughn was one of the best guitarists ever - and Hendrix was too. John Lennon was one of the best songwriters ever and Enzo stopped being a ***** and started being a "lovable quirky gentleman" after he died. See the pattern?


    As for JV, he sucks, has always sucked, and won't even acknowledge his suckitude. His only alternative to his whining is to admit that he's not fit even to hold Schumi's peter while he goes to the toilet, so of course it's easier to convince people (read: himself) that Schumi only won by cheating and games than by talent. Because to admit the latter would be to admit he lacks talent, which while true, would be an untenable situation for JV. I've seen interviews with Williams engineers who say they are surprised JV didnt win by a larger margin. JV doesn't have "it". He was a one-hit wonder. With a car that was far far superior to all others, he eeked out a single WDC. It wasn't based on talent, it was based on having the best car. In that car, Coulthard, or Panis, or Trulli, or Ralf, or Speed would have won. JV won the lucky-driver contest that year. That's why he couldn't do it again.

    As for the comments that the press should know the "truth", well I'd think the team owners and managers should know about JV. He's been FIRED from three or four teams, depending on your viewpoint. Nobody sees any talent in him, despite the urging of Bernie. JV never had any real talent, he is the equivalent of Ralf except he got lucky one year with the best car whereas Ralf never did.

    Goodbye JV, you won't be missed, and you won't be remembered 1% as much as you probably think, but MS will be revered as the best driver anywhere, moreso the more time passes.
     
  13. bernardo66

    bernardo66 The Crazy Cat Man
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    Post of the Year!!!!!!
     
  14. ApeGen

    ApeGen Formula 3
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    Thats exactly my point. The worse happened to Hill in 94, it did cost him the championship. But he never verbally attacked MS at JV's level. And he recognizes MS's talent and achievements publicly. Now thats class.
     
  15. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ

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    Unless you post this on Jacque's MySpace page, I think you're safe in a t-shirt and shorts:)
     
  16. dealerjack

    dealerjack Karting
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    Um, not particularly a JV fan but he didn't suck as a race car driver. He was, and still is quite talented and quite quick, even by F1 standards. Of course, his comments about Michael Schumacher are laughable. Michael will be remembered as one of the all time greats -- but Senna still gets my vote as the greatest so far. Did you ever see Senna on a qualifying lap?
     
  17. Grahame

    Grahame Formula Junior

    Nov 9, 2005
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    Senna at Monte Carlo in JPS car in the wet.... !
     
  18. velocityengineer

    velocityengineer Formula Junior

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    JV has a very good history of his own. he was a very good driver. He used to be a guy who was instantly quick in whatever seat he was in. He could have retired one or two years ago with a bright legacy.

    But he is in NO position to say anything negative about MS or any other driver. He was sacked for not getting the job done, period. BMW has the data, they know the facts, there is no lying about how hard the throttle was pressed anymore.

    As for "dirty driving" Senna was every bit as bad and much more openly hostile than MS. MS has pushed over the line many times, and paid the penalties for it. He also gets the job done, and does not get sacked. Those with the blinding desire to win will do so, sometimes by overstepping the line. (just like life, business, and all sport)

    Racing is a mans sport, like any other, there are "testosterone moments". Its part of the game. If you cant deal with it, you go home and write poetry and play music (JV).

    nice guys finish last. Crybabies who cant get it done get sacked and whine about it.
     
  19. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    You got some points there, but I'm not even buying the argument, that the Europeans don't like MS. When I read the magazines printed in German (which isn't the same as the German magazines) I see about a 50/50 split. That's maybe a bit more negative than in the States, but still there is a huge group of MS fans. If that wasn't the case DEKRA would have long stopped sponsoring MS because you can't buy their services in the US anyway.

    It really is sad to see JV making these statements. I like the guy in general, have respect for his accomplishments as a racer and would like him to take the high road and retire gracefully. Making stupid statements tarnishes his own legacy.
     
  20. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    In my opinion, JV did suck.

    He won a WDC, but did so when he had what was by FAR the best car. I would stake my life on the fact that JV doesn't have "it". And by "it" i mean that sixth sense - that extra ability to excel. I think MS has it in spades. Kimi has it too. Alonso may have it. JV certainly does not have it. JV is a guy that needs everything to be perfect for him to win. He takes no responsibility for his driving - if he does not do well, it's always the car, or the strategy, or the track, or the other drivers that are to blame. When do you ever see JV say "well, we had a great car and every potential to win but I couldn't capitalize on it today". Those words will never flow from JV's mouth. JV won his WDC because he had the best car that year (not kinda the best car, by FAR the best car). Even then, it wasn't a huge margin between him and the others in the WDC. There are interviews with JV's race engineers and even they say they were surprised he didnt win by a larger margin. JV is a mediocre driver, he doesn't have that extra something that MS, Senna, Kimi and others have.

    Agree on Senna... I think senna was every bit as dirty as Schumi, and certainly was a great driver. Personally I put MS way ahead of Senna, but can accept others opinion who feel the opposite :) I can't accept anyone's opinion who would think JV is better than MS though (not that you do, I just mean in general) :)
     
  21. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Well, I'd guess that mags in German are probably tuned for the German market, no?

    I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Germans - but having lived 12 years in Europe, I'm just saying my experience is that there is a big difference in the mindset between Europeans and Americans. Many people in the USA admire people who do well and like to hear success stories. Many people (that I've interacted with) over there seem to feel that successful people were either lucky, or got where they are by being unethical, immoral, or downright illegal. IMO the train of thought is that since they were not lucky, and are not unethical or immoral or illegal, thats why they didn't "make it". There's still a lot of animosity towards Germans over there too in many places (UK especially!) so a German doing really well is a major target of criticism. When said German isn't self deprecating in interviews, it probably drives 'em up the wall.

    Of course this is a generalization and I realize it doesn't apply to every individual, I'm just talking about groups as a whole.
     
  22. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ

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    The odd thing is, he used to seem like he DID have "it". Like I posted before, when he was racing Atlantics, and then Indy Cars, he was the man. He stormed into F1--albeit in the dominant Williams--and looked like he'd be the next big thing. This is the driver who used to race with less than 1cm of throttle travel! I think he was ultimately undermined by his spoiled nature, which didn't surface until the machinery was subpar.
     
  23. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    A couple remarks:

    - Austrians and Swiss also speak German and have their own magazines about F1. It is no wonder that the German magazines support MS as a German, but it is more telling that the Swiss and Austrians also widely support him.

    - I fully agree with your comments about the sentiments towards successful people. You're right on the money there.

    - To my astonishment I found huge support for MS in the UK. As you said the British are often not too keen on anything coming from WWII foe Germany, yet Michael with his success and talent managed to win a lot of their hearts. I saw that in British tabloids and I saw that in the grandstands of Silverstone.

    So to make a long story longer: That's why I'm not even convinced that only people on a Ferrari website or in the States are supporting MS.
     
  24. dealerjack

    dealerjack Karting
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    Well I would never include JV in the same class as Schumacher, Senna, Clark, et. al. but there is a long way between that and "suck." JV has a unique style and doesn't perform well if the car is not set up exactly to his liking. Sure he won the championship with the best car but a top car and team is necessary to do that. The driver can and does add something but I don't think MS would have come close to winning the World Championship in a BAR (although I would grant you that he would have looked better than JV).
     
  25. Strasse

    Strasse Formula Junior

    Apr 12, 2004
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    Looks like JV's fishing for some publicity on that crappy music single he's mewed out.

    Dislike MS? Sure. Everyone is entitled to feel the way they want about somebody. And if you aren't a Ferrari fan, it's easy to harbor a lot of hatred for the guy--seems a lot of Ferrari fans aren't crazy about him either. But to say he's going to be forgotten?

    Silly talk.

    On top of MS's staggering F1 records, IMO he should also be just as appreciated for his charitable contributions. Maybe JV should consider how much $$ he's forked out for good causes before making stupid comments... or perhaps he should just shut the hell up and stick to "reading poetry to his friends" in his Canadian nightclub.

    P.S. SRT Mike, you are a beautiful, beautiful man.
     

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