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Trade your Challenge Stradale for...

Discussion in '360/430' started by frank320, Aug 19, 2015.

  1. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    The number of people whom attribute track performance to outright power alone show that they don't spend that much time track driving themselves. Clearly raw engine performance is one attribute but most certainly not everything and anyone whom is a really fast, competent track driver will attest to this.

    Cars have already become way to fast for most public roads so only the track is a place left where people can experience the performance on offer. This is interesting in itself because the majority of the time people spend with their cars on roads, not tracks.

    In fact the pure ethos of the special model's is to concentrate on purity of the driving "emotions" and "experience" so its all about optimizations thereafter, and this translates to the way the car behaves even at lower speeds ; weight reduction, handling and track biased geo/tires, braking and aero can be felt at legal "road" speeds to and the CS oozes personality because of this.

    This is in contrast to standard series cars which focus more on compromises more suitable for everyday usability, luxury features, ride quality, low cabin noise and opulence so driving at fast speeds are more difficult to even notice.

    Luxury electric cars like the newest 2.3 tonne Tesla Saloon car with its 2.8 seconds to 0-60mph using its "Ludicrous Mode" (930Nm of torque available from rest!) from its massive 85kw battery pack will completely obliterate almost all (if not all) combustion engine ever made (minus hybrids which 'torque fill' the missing power low down the rev range like the Mclaren P1 and LaF). They are also able to use active Torque Vectoring and many other advancements which will leave "legacy" combustion engined cars in their wake... However Does this kind of performance make it more fun than a CS? Absolutely and resoundingly "no", its a deadpan unemotional kind of performance, like taking off in a commercial airliner, and once accustomed to it rather unmoving (when all you hear is wind noise). It will be interesting how they manage to get the experience back to being "emotional", beyond the raw performance figures. The same challenge that faces the Formula E.

    Q. Is it challenging to extract the performance? Can it drive itself (probably soon!) so you become the weak link. I wonder how many people would actually buy a car that drives itself around a track (rather than them), I'm sure some actually would so they could claim bragging rights that they have the fastest car! Doesn't sound like a replacement for a CS no matter how fast it goes to me....

    -T
     
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  3. redcaruser

    redcaruser Formula 3
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    What if I'm just looking for a V8 Ferrari with better performance figures as a CS can deliver? Why do I have to change the brand in such a case?

    If I'm looking for a "CS with a stronger engine, with better performance figures" the Scuderia is the right choice, why I'm in the wrong brand? If I'm looking for a sharp mid engine V8 with better performance figures as a Scuderia can deliver the Speciale is the right choice, why I'm in the wrong brand? I really don't see your point!

    And with the 488 the performance journey now continues; Ferrari, what a beautiful brand! I'm definitely not in the wrong brand.
     
  4. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    That's fine but you're changing the subject..... Just refer to the thread title.

    Some here attribute VALUE to PERFORMANCE. That's all I'm talking about. Remove VALUE from the equation and YES, go buy what you want and don't think about it. Some here don't understand why a CS would trade for a SCUD plus $35K. It has nothing to do with performance.

    I'm not in the market for any new car with better performance because I can't extract that performance because I don't spend my weekends at the track. If I did spend my weekends at the track I'd have an Ariel Atom because it will beat the pants of all the cars we're talking about.
     
  5. redcaruser

    redcaruser Formula 3
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    All this is ok for you, no problem with that. But it seems your equation is not my equation, in my equation value and performance can not be separated. Yes, I spend weekends at the track and there I enjoy my Scuderia with its performance capabilities to the fullest. But I enjoy my Scuderia also in public traffic as you your CS, and thrust me, there, the 0.7 liter more displacement are very important to me, to me that is money worth! An Ariel Atom? Are you crazy? I wanna drive Ferrari on the racetrack.

    Have you ever asked yourself why new Ferrari cars always offer more performance than its predecessors and many people pay big bucks for it again and again? And yes, very few of them go to the racetrack with their Ferraris. New cars are bought for more performance, used cars are bought for more performance. Sorry, but this is completely normal in the sports car world.

    Sex sells and performance sells...
     
  6. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    New cars are not bought for "performance". They are bought for "The story of their performance".
     
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  8. ASK328

    ASK328 Formula 3
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    #106 ASK328, Aug 23, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I sold my CS and bought a 360 spider 6 speed car. I couldn't be happier. The CS was a great car and I miss it (or perhaps I miss the value appreciation) however for me the spider with its comforts, gated shifting, and more road friendly is such a better car for me. Loved the CS however I would prefer my spider (and x10 my wife) to my old CS any day.

    So at that time I would have traded for a spider 6 speed car and cash.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  9. supratime

    supratime Formula Junior

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    I don't see why we have to choose one or the other? Why can't we love them all? We all can AGREE they're all great in their own way.. In my honest opinion, it all comes down to buying power and garage storage availability.... Most of us are only able to buy a certain amount of cars given their budget, garage space etc. etc. If we had unlimited funds and storage, I defy anyone not wanting to add a scud or CS to your collection..

    Unfortunately the sky isn't the limit for most of us... so we make do by narrowing it down and purchasing the car or cars that best suit our personal preferences and lifestyle. I don't expect everyone to have the same taste or desires.. That would be a boring ass world to live in. I enjoy hearing opinions from different owners with various perspectives. It's what makes these forums so great!

    Now I love listening to the lucky few that have wonderful collection of ferraris.. F40, Enzo, 599 gto, scud, speciale etc. etc. I've been told from owners that out of all their cars, the CS still stands head and shoulders above or at least still competes with the likes of the f40 & Enzo in driving experience... That's a significant positive for the CS in my book. These lucky bastards have so many amazing ferraris, yet to them, the CS is just as incredible to drive, listen and look at. Plus the low production numbers make it just as exclusive. The CS is often described as a "forever car" and will always be in their car collection. I agree.

    I believe the CS cult following is incredibly powerful for those reasons and it has a much bigger fan base than its successor. This car really makes you feel close to ferrari racing and (for the money) it gives you that incredible driving experience like no other. To me it's all about driver experience and exclusivity..it's not always about speed.. I've driven and owned cars faster than the CS (z06, lambo, gtr other ferraris) but none offer the same raw visceral driving experience as the CS. It's always feels like an insane party driving a challenge Stradale.. It makes other cars (in similar price range) almost feel like a nonevent (too refined).. You're gonna have to pay nearly six figures for something more special :)

    Even marchettino agrees :)

    http://youtu.be/plYTjTxxNqQ
     
  10. redcaruser

    redcaruser Formula 3
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    Somebody uses the performance, others want to own it only. I guess it's not up to you to judge about these people. Fact is, they buy the cars because of its performance capabilities.
     
  11. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    I'm not judging at all.

    But don't tell me car X should cost more than car Z because it's faster.
     
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  13. MaranelloDave

    MaranelloDave Formula 3
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    #110 MaranelloDave, Aug 23, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2015
    Not disagreeing with your post trev, but this particular point, that today's cars are "too fast for public roads" (or the related argument that it's pointless to have a high performance car when the speed limit is 55 mph) kills me. You can reasonably argue that cars were "too fast for public roads" back in the 1950s (using the same criteria). Hell, you can reasonably argue that cars were always too fast for public roads considering how poor roads were back in the early part of last century. That said, just because you cannot dive FLAT OUT in a car on a public road without being unsafe and/or exceeding the speed limit does NOT mean that the car's high performance is unusable on the road. In fact, you can use that performance every time you take to the road without being unsafe or even breaking traffic laws.

    Again, every time you accelerate to merge onto a highway, accelerate to overtake a slow car, take a mountain curve without braking, brake late to come to a stop (e.g., to avoid an accident), etc., you're using the car's high performance. For some reason, people only consider things like driving flat out or the car's top speed when deciding whether a car's performance is usable for the road, but this is clearly misguided. Yes, I can't drive 195 mph on the road, but that doesn't mean I still can't enjoy my scud's performance on the road. Ever dropped a gear, put your foot down to the floor, and accelerate from say 50 to 70? That uses the full performance of the car, isn't illegal (assuming the speed limit is at least 70 mph), AND is fun.

    Now THAT was a lecture. :)
     
  14. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
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    I agree w trev re "too fast for roads" fwiw.

    The 458 is a great example. It's so GT like at anything below 8/10ths, that for me it doesn't provide much emotion at street speeds. Believe it or not, there are some of us who rather have less power and thus have to whip the car to get it going (I suppose it's why the lotus and miata have fans).

    I totally get why others want max power. No problem, different strokes and all.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  15. redcaruser

    redcaruser Formula 3
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    #112 redcaruser, Aug 23, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2015
    No, not in these words.
    But within a brand and within a model range performance capabilities driving up the price, in the sports car world this is obviously and a hard and fast rule. Pls don't be angry with me, I am not the inventor of this rule, I convey only the message.

    Is a BMW M3 not more expensive than a BMW 335i? Is a Mercedes-AMG E63 not more expensive than a Mercedes E 500? Is a Porsche 911 GT3 RS not more expensive than a 911 GT3? Is a 599 GTO not more expensive than a 599 GTB? Is a 360 CS not more expensive than a 360 Modena? Of course with the age of the cars there are collector's vehicle surcharges, but the principle remains the same. Think about!
    Think about the question "why are customers willing to pay much more money for all these models?".
     
  16. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    When I quote "too fast for public roads", I don't actually mean it in purest v.max terms (almost everything goes over multiple times over most countries speed limits), more to the point, that to really "enjoy" the latest hyper fast cars is much much harder on the open road, particular for any great length of time.

    To stir emotion requires your terminal velocity to be much higher, the example is driving an F12 around local roads in a playful way. To get and stay into the enjoyment zone on typical local roads takes a lot more risks and forces you to be driving much more committed than reaching the same level of "fun" in something with less weight, less power and less mechanical grip like say a CS (and if caught you probably will be "committed"!). If you stay "on it" in an F12 for more than a few seconds your very lucky indeed. Also on the open road if you had an "off" at the sorts of speeds the F12 is capable of achieving so effortlessly I don't know if you'd still be around to tell the tale. Those moments are going to be a pretty nutty time (!) so it really depends on how you derive enjoyment, do you want the "instant satisfaction hit" for a few short seconds or do you want dramatic build up over a longer period of enjoyment? Lol...

    I enjoy all the different cars in totally different ways and it takes you time and significant numbers of miles to realize you need to approach them and drive them in totally different ways to get smiles out of them. Driving a Turbo like an NA will make you hate it and vice versa. Learn how to drive them both and they each give you different things back.
     
  17. rpmtifosi

    rpmtifosi Formula 3

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    Sounds familiar!
    I could trade the CS for a Scud plus extra cash, but no thanks, i prefer the 'slower' car!! :D ;)
    One day i might add a 16M (for the open top driving) or 458 Speciale, but selling the CS? NEVER!

    BTW: when i started reading this thread i just knew it would turn into another Scud is faster than CS thread! :D These posters should start posting in the vintage section.... 'Scud is faster than 250 GTO' ;)
     
  18. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    #115 Jason Crandall, Aug 23, 2015
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    Back then there were no cops, traffic, redlights, potholes, lawyers etc.

    Any sedan with a decent engine will provide the merging performance you're looking for. Nobody needs a Ferrari to negotiate day to day driving.

    Look what's available in cars nowadays.... My GF's 5 series Bimmer is a ridiculous mish mash of silly electronic gadgets, awesome stereo and luxurious interior. It has decent pickup and it's quiet. But it's all about the little gadgets, meters and things to bing bing bing at you.
     
  19. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    #116 Jason Crandall, Aug 23, 2015
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    Then why does this thread exist if what you say is true? The title of this thread has nothing to do with "new cars". We're discussing the market.
     
  20. Ingenere

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    Back in the day I used to absolutely wring out my Fiat X1/9 on road and track. The speeds were just not that fast, and you were still driving the car at 9/10ths plus and learning car control... how to analyze a corner, etc, etc. Trying to explore the envelope or learn anything in a newer car is virtually impossible since the limits are just so much higher, unless you are on a track with an instructor.

    Had I just come straight into a CS (or any modern sports car) I think the CS/Scud/Speciale/GT3, etc would be hugely intimidating. However, I cut my teeth on karts, low powered, great handling sportscars and worked my way up. As much fun as walking away from a Scud on a track with the CS is, I think it was more rewarding hounding Porsche 928s, 911s, and Ferrari Boxers at Lime Rock in that X1/9.

    My perfect garage would be all the track focused Ferraris... CS, Scud, Speciale, F40 and Porsche's 991 GT3.

    ......And no, there isn't a car I would trade the CS for.
     
  21. MaranelloDave

    MaranelloDave Formula 3
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    Wow, there were no cops, traffic, red lights, pot holes, or lawyers in the 1950s?! Tell us more about the way it was when you were our age, grandpa!
     
  22. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    #119 Jason Crandall, Aug 23, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2015
    You don't think there's a major liability issue today compared to the 1950's? You wreck your $100K Ferrari today driving like an idiot on public roads and you're going to jail.

    Didn't you bow out a couple pages back?

    LOL
     
  23. MaranelloDave

    MaranelloDave Formula 3
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    #120 MaranelloDave, Aug 23, 2015
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    If you're talking about a hypercar nearing 1000 bhp, I agree that it could be really frustrating on the road, but I disagree when people say that a car like my scud, which is really fast, is too much for the road. My car has 500 bhp and I'm glad it has each one. I feel like I get to use all of them when I drive on public roads, even if only for short periods of time, and it's exhilarating.

    In general, I just don't agree with this "too fast for the road" thing as modern high-power cars can be driven slowly when desired and are completely docile in such situations. I've driven the F12 and, if you want, you can drive it like a Camry and it will do just fine. Of course, I could see being frustrated that you can't drive faster, but you can experience the same thing in any car when there's heavy traffic.

    Part of the reason I don't buy this "too fast for the road" thing is that it is something that people have said year after year after year. I remember when the first cars that had over 400 bhp came out and everyone said that it was too much power for the road. They said the same thing about cars with over 500 bhp, and then those with over 600 bhp, and on and on. If they were right back then, and 500 bhp was too much for the road, then we wouldn't have cars today that have that much or more power, of which there are many.

    Another reason I don't buy into the "too fast for the road" deal is my own driving experiences. As an example, I used to own a V8 Vantage. It had nearly 400 hp, which sounds like a lot. Then I got the V12 Vantage, which has over 500 hp. While I couldn't drive that car around town at WOT all the time (and couldn't with the V8 either), the extra power and torque made a HUGE difference in the driving experience. It was much more fun to drive than the V8 Vantage even when I wasn't driving the car fast. It seemed completely effortless to get the car moving, which was a welcome change from the V8 Vantage. This made me appreciate how much additional power/torque changes the nature of the car, even when you are using all of it.
     
  24. MaranelloDave

    MaranelloDave Formula 3
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    Yeah, that's not what you said though, is it? This is why I don't wish to discuss this with you -- you twist what others say, you even twist what you say. In short, you're full of sh#t. There's just no reasoning with someone like you.
     
  25. galt

    galt Formula 3
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    Lots of reasons other than performance influencing many to value a scud overy a CS. After all Schumacher and Ferrari spent lots of time and effort to evolve the car which is a street car after all. Arguing that the positive reasons to buy a scud are limited to performance just does not hold water and misleads those trying to choose between the two. I highly recomend that prospective buyers experience both to appeciate them properly.

    Much of the work to evolve the car has non track speed benefits (bumpy road button among others). One worth 35k alone is the gearbox. Scud gearbox is awesome on the street. Super snappy, exciting and viscel even at moderate speeds. Others include exterior styling as well interior improvements and styling differences. Some don't like the ide of worrying about (and paying) to change the belts. Clearly that has no impact on performance or driving experience.

    Again not faulting someone choosing one car over another. To me reasons to buy the CS are styling preferences and subjective preference for how the car drives. Relative rarity matters to some. All of which are perfectly valid.

    However arguing the positive differences attributable to the scud come only from performance is false and a disservice to those trying to make a pre-purchase evaluation.
     
  26. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    #123 360trev, Aug 23, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2015
    Its not just all just about peak bhp, its also directly proportional to weight being accelerated too as well as torque available at the point of acceleration. This is why electric or hybrid electric cars kick so violently!

    Here's an interesting table...

    Ferrari 360 Modena.............Stock.......3.5 kg/bhp
    Ferrari Challenge Stradale.....Typical.....3.2 kg/bhp
    Ferrari Challenge Stradale.....Best........3.1 kg/bhp
    Ferrari F430 Coupe.............Stock.......3.0 kg/bhp

    Ferrari 430 Scuderia...........Stock.......2.7 kg/bhp
    Ferrari 458 Italia.............Stock.......2.7 kg/bhp
    **Ferrari 360...................Tuned.......2.7 kg/bhp (my super striped/tuned car)

    Ariel Atom Non Supercharged....Stock.......2.5 kg/bhp
    Mclaren MP 12C.................Stock.......2.4 kg/bhp
    Mclaren 650S...................Stock.......2.3 kg/bhp
    Ferrari 430 Scuderia...........Tuned.......2.3 kg/bhp
    Ferrari 458 Speciale...........Stock.......2.3 kg/bhp
    Ferrari F40....................Stock.......2.3 kg/bhp

    Ferrari 488 GTB................Stock.......2.2 kg/bhp
    Ferrari F12....................Stock.......2.1 kg/bhp
    Mclaren 675LT..................Stock.......2.0 kg/bhp

    Ariel Atom 500 V8..............Stock.......1.1 kg/bhp

    * Note: This table only illustrates PEAK power to weight, it cannot show power across the entire torque curve therefore it will not accurately predict which car is faster. Mechanical grip, launch control, shift speed, electronic differentials and so forth, not to mention tyres, aero, downforce and wheels driven all play a massive role in determining which is faster on both cornering and in a straight line. Instant torque is a factor of electric assistance which makes an enormous difference to acceleration times (also known as torque fill)

    Computers happened! All that's actually happened is that your request for torque (i.e. pressing of the throttle pedal) is now managed by a computer, so its indirectly limiting the amount that a computer model (predicts) your rear tires can accept before bonfiring them (spinning out of control)! So you could have 10,000 hp but if the grip available along with the tire section width, temperatures, etc cannot cope with more than 50 hp( that's all you'll get). Ofcourse with a bigger engine you get more peak hp at a lower rev point so you get to use more torque across a wider band of acceleration, having less weight just makes it happen quicker.

    People used to say "to fast" before all the electronic management of torque came into force. Torque vectoring with torque fill completely moves the game on again and hence the reason why Tesla with a full on saloon car can obliterate your Scuderia in a car seating 5 people with well over a tonne more weight and 4 doors! That instant slug of torque will make your CS/Scud/Enzo/etc (delete as appropriate) engine feel like a canal boat. The future is coming... Its definitely faster (and possibly with 'fake engine noises') but more fun ? I think I'll just settle for 'different'...

    -T
     
  27. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    Most folks here agree with what I'm saying. Why don't you fight with them also?
     
  28. MaranelloDave

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    They really don't though.
     

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