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TR Recreation for sale- vintage eligible?

Discussion in 'Recreations & Non-Period Rebodies' started by EC308, Dec 4, 2005.

  1. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    as to (1) given the location of the FISPA pump, you can eliminate motor tipos 105, 110, 111, 119 and 129. So that leaves a tipo 131 (500 TR/TRC) or the 2.5 liter version for the 625 (is there still a 625 motor in existence whose whereabouts are known?).

    for (2) - a pure shot in the dark - is it the motor to 0706MDTR that ended up in the Lees collection?

    for (3) - if it's near Virginia - that shoots my answer for (2) . . . you got me!
     
  2. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

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    I don't know why anyone would pay $150,000+ for a replica, when for that kind of money one could buy a 750 or 1100cc "etceterini" with Targa Florio or Mille Miglia history.
     
  3. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

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    I can think of many reasons. For one, looks. Lots of the etceterini sort of cars are butt ugly. Another reason is size. I am 6'2".... not going to be driving a Moretti 750cc for pretty obvious reasons. Another is simply fun and speed, the tiny displacement cars are often slow. I need to be able to induce wheelspin shifting into 3d gear.

    Looks like a 250TR, sounds like a 250TR, smells like a 250TR, runs like a 250TR, drives like a 250TR..... but costs 5% of a TR? Sign me up. I dont have $10m, and I am unlikely to ever have such $$$ much less a spare amount to blow on a car like that. Yet, I am a huge fan of such cars and would love to have one to drive an enjoy. The fact that the big dollar car snobs wouldnt let me play with them does not bother me at all, I would probably get along better with the grease under your fingernails class anyhow.

    Besides, I have a "real" Ferrari already so I can stick my tongue out and say BLOW if I want too. Gimme a really great replica 250TR or GTO and I can REALLY spread horror through the neighborhood and instill terror in small children throughout the region! Isn't that the true purpose of such cars anyway?



    Terry
     
  4. DSeibert

    DSeibert Karting

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    The car in question, which is apparently 3887 GT, formerly a 250 GTE, is not eligible for any event organized or sponsored by Ferrari. It will not be eligible for events such as the Monterey Historics and the Lime Rock Historics.

    I can't speak for organizations such as HSR and SVRA, but I believe that they do accept replicas.
     
  5. Horsefly

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    Sounds like Terry and I are in the same camp on this issue. Most of us will never own a $10M dollar original. But it sure would be fun to have a replica. But at what point would the smile turn into a frown? Would a fiberglass body suffice? Perhaps if it was on an original design tube frame. But once you omit the tube frame in favor of an aftermarket square frame job, and once you switch to a fiberglass body, and once you substitute a Chevy engine for the growing ever more expensive Ferrari V12, do you eventually reach Kitcarville and the appropriate scorn that is usually reserved for Bradley GTs with Volkswagen floor pans?
     
  6. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

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    I've found that even a car such as my lowly Mondial 8 can do that...

    I understand the financial reasons for replicas, but it reminds me of the story of the founding of the National Gallery of Art in Washington DC. Originally they wanted to have reproductions made of the great works of art because they didn't feel that there were enough people interested in the "real" stuff to donate to the museum.

    The prices on the real stuff are high because of the work of people like Ed Gilbertson and David Seibert made sure that the focus is on the actual original cars, not just some out of focus "lithograph" that was hacked together in someone's garage.
     
  7. Old Guy

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    #32 Old Guy, Dec 7, 2005
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    Bryan,

    I found the photo of the block on an engine stand. To answer (3), it was in Kensington, Maryland, which may suggest a name to you. He had been retained by my ex-partner in a project to rebuild the engine; apparently my partner told him to "take his time...."

    From the photo you may want to reconsider one of the types you elminated.

    O.G.
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  8. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    HEY OLD GUY.....


    thank you for taking the time to share these pictures. i have never seen many of these cars in any other setting than in a book . seeing them through the "eyes" of somone who knew the cars well is a very nice experience.

    thank you :) , MICHAEL
     
  9. Old Guy

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    #34 Old Guy, Dec 7, 2005
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    Michael,

    It's been a lot of fun to go through a box of old photos (there are hundreds of all sorts of Ferraris -- I'll post a few of the interesting ones as I find the time). Carbon has been on me to play well with others and to share, so I trust he'll be happy with this.

    And Erik, just to prove that I you're not the only only who drives an eight-cylinder car....

    O.G.
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  10. Bugattiart

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    Hi O.G, :)

    Very fine piece of machinery there, is it a 35 C or a 35 B ??? Chassis No.???
    I really like that picture, nowadays it's getting pretty hard to find one of those machines with the proper wheels fitted.....they all got the Type 51 wheels!

    Greetings

    Carsten
     
  11. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

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    :)

    I just wish that I was around a bit earlier. When you were my age, the really cool stuff was just as affordable as the stuff I collect now...
     
  12. Old Guy

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    Hi, Carsten,

    It's the Helle Nice car, chassis 4863. It was built as a 35C, later converted to 35B specs. The performance is incredible, particularly when you realize that Ford was building Model As when this car was built. I used only 4500 RPM on the road as a red line; the owner uses 6000 in racing.

    Erik,

    You're right. Back then these were just neat cars, not road jewelry. I had a 275 GTS, 330 GTC, and at least one 275 GTB, each of which was under $20K. I thought the greatest thing in the world was to be able to buy a Ferrari, drive it a year or two, and not lose a lot of money on the deal.

    O.G.
     
  13. Bugattiart

    Bugattiart F1 Veteran

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    Thanks O.G., :)
    So now it really is a road jewel, :)
    Perhaps we should share the fact that Mlle. Helle Nice was a well known female racing driver in the twenties and one of the very best of her day!

    Nothing runs quite like these "hysterically" Bugatti straight eight's.....oh and the sound of these ..........:) In my imagination I can hear this engine right now at 6000 rpm's!!!
    Thanks for sharing the pic. much appreciated!!!

    Best

    Carsten
     
  14. Bugattiart

    Bugattiart F1 Veteran

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    Hi Erik,

    Me too... :)
     
  15. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

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    I think that is the part that most people don't get about me. I have just as much fun with my ~$20k Ferraris as those with 330s, 275s, 250s, 166s. You don't have to empty your wallet completely to have a good time.
     
  16. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

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    For some small events, probably. But not the big events or the higher profile series.
     
  17. Old Guy

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    #42 Old Guy, Dec 7, 2005
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    To bring this thread back to the beginning, as it started with a copy of a car Ferrari never built....

    These are the two GTO Spyders. There's a lot more involved than just cutting the top off a replica body to get the lines right, and the first one had to be redone to look "right"

    Strictly speaking, these aren't replicas. Ferrari never built a GTO Spyder, and Hilary Raab thought it might be a neat idea. He had a bare Pf coupe chassis, and commissioned the car from Mark Gerish. Dave Cummins did much of the design work. This is the yellow car; it's the "LWB" GTO Spyder, as Hilary wanted to preserve the original chassis. (Hil's in the passenger seat.)

    The second car was built for Frank Beard, drummer of ZZ Top, after I took him to Hilary's house and he saw the LWB. Frank's was also built by Mark, but on a chassis to the proper GTO wheelbase. (Sorry, this one cost a derelict GTE from Greg Jones.) It is to full GTO specs, including the engine. In the photo Mark Gerish is driving it before it was finished and painted.

    It's been pretty much a wasted day looking at all these old photos, but it sure did bring back some memories. When you get to be an old guy you're allowed to occasionally do this, and lecture the young'uns on the good old days

    O.G.
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  18. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
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    Regarding the replica coupe bodies that they started with; where were they actually hammered out? Italy? And what would such a replica body cost today?

    I nominate OLD GUY for poster of the month for sharing these original vintage photos.
     
  19. Old Guy

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    Both bodies were created from scratch by Mark Gerish, in Two Rivers, WI. Mark is an immensely talented coachbuilder, who is now doing custom work on Bentleys. (Hey, there's money in bling!)
     
  20. thecarreaper

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    with the pics you have and the memories you can share i am surprised Carbon's head has not exploded !! :) i look forward to more pics, and thanks again. :)
     
  21. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    see !!!!! i am not the only one !!!! ............


    bought a 308gts...... then a 308 GTB and then a 308GT4 and then 2 Lamborghini's...... OOPS !!! :) :) :) evil grins !!



    its more to fun to have a few old cars and drive them for a year and pass them on, than to buy the cool car of the minute and have it depreciate many dollars.


    LONG LIVE CARB CARS !!!!!!!!!!
     
  22. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    ok, O.G., my final attempt; Since i didn't cheat (i.e., ask the Admiral or look at reference books) earlier today, I forgot that the tipo 129 did, in fact have the FIMAC attached to the front of the motor and not the left rear cam box. Also, your block photo shows the top studs for the exhaust manifold in a straight line which rules out tipo 131. So, I'll say tipo 129 which would have been for either the 857S or the 860 Monza.

    my guess is 0570M (fall-back guess is 0602M). This was at a time when Kendall Merritt and Chuck Wray would have been teenagers, so that rules out Grand Touring (and I don't think Dick M. was doing engine work, although he had an amazing basement - you couldn't turn around without tripping over an old Ferrari motor). My dad has a fuzzy memory of two F mechanics off of route 1 in suburban MD. Would those be the guys?
     
  23. Old Guy

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    Bryan,

    Good guess, and you're right. It is an 860 Monza, (tipo 129), but it's 0602M. I shared ownership of the engine from 0570M, but traded it (to Bob Dusek) for this one. It was actually a three-way trade, involving a TR motor which went to Pierre Bardinon.

    Kendall Merritt was indeed a teenager then. I suspect your dad will recogize the name Gordon Tatum; this was after he and Charlies Hayes split up. (Their business was called ICE -- Internal Combustion Engineering.) As I remember the name of Gordon's shop was GT something or another at this point.

    It was originally meant for my TRC, as I was then under the impression that John von Neumann had fitted the car with one of these engines, which seems not to have been true. Then a divorce intervened, and I sold the engine, TRC gearbox (I forget where I found that one), and a lovely pair of Weber 58 DCOAs to Bruce Lavachek, who sold it on to David Cottingham who reunited the engine with the chassis.

    As an aside, both the 857/860s we owned showed signs of rods "putting a leg out of bed" as the English expression goes. As I remember the red line on these engines was 4600, so overrevs were not a surprise.

    Gordon Tatum is a very interesting person in his own right, given all the cars he's owned and raced, and the things he's done. That, though, is another story....

    O.G.
     
  24. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

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    I need to get back for more schooling...
     
  25. donv

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    This is a great thread!

    Are the two GTO spyders still around somewhere? They look great-- to be honest (and heretical), I think they look better than the real GTOs!
     

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