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TR engine knock

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by tamburini44, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    Went by the dealer to discuss the options mentioned and took some more photos of the engine.
    That crazy mess blocked at least one oil feed.

    If anyone has a TR oil flow diagram for the cylinder head that would be great.

    Dealer agreed to proceed without rebuilding the bottom end so long as they don't see damage.
    Waiting for an estimate of taking everything apart to clean up that mess.

    Damn shame.
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  2. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    Turbo-joe, since you service TR's regularly, can you confirm that the cam caps must match the number on the block and the also orientation of the number on the block?

    So, the exhaust caps stamped number faces downward and the intake caps upward.
     
  3. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    oh, good questions. sorry, don´t really know exactly.

    under caps you mean the removable half bearing from the cams?

    but when you put the front half bearing cam on there is only 1 way to do this because of the mark. and so as the number then looks all other numbers from the halfs have to look the same direction.
    and of course: the number from the halfs have to match the numbers on the heads. but you write something from the block? so please explain what you mean
     
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  4. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
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  5. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    You answered exactly what I wanted to confirm. I've been half arguing with people that should know better.
    So, oil starvation was also involved in the cam seizing.


    My mistake, I meant the heads.
     
  6. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    Thanks, I missed it in the WSM.

    That diagram is all black in my copy.

    Is the original color coded?
     
  7. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    #157 tamburini44, Oct 31, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
    Am I reading this correctly?

    Oil flows from the tank toward the filter,
    by going up around the intake cam area - is that the oil pump?

    From the filter to the crank and to the heads.

    From the heads it enters the cams and gets distributed to each half bearing?

    Which would make the half bearing the cam seized on the furthest from the oil feed.
     
  8. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

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    #158 Steve Magnusson, Oct 31, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
    Mine is colored. I have an official print copy in the blue binder with the 4-hole punching. (I did add the hard-written notes but not the coloring.)

    This is sort of a see-thru x-ray figure so it doesn't go "up around the intake cam area". Most of the lubrication system is housed in the front of the gearbox casting (see TAV 23 in the TR SPC -- also see TAV 1 for the large hollow dowel, item 35, that connects the oil passages in the gearbox casting to the oil passages in the engine block). I'd list the "path" as:
    low pressure oil leaves the bottom of the oil tank, and goes to the high-pressure oil pump inlet
    high-pressure oil exits the high pressure pump outlet and goes to the oil filter inlet
    high-pressure oil exits the oil filter and goes to the large oil galley that serves both the crankshaft and the cyl heads
    from the large oil galley, oil passes thru that small orifice at each block-head junction and is split to pressurize the center of both cams
    where is lubricates all the cam bearings

    Having that small orifice piece blocked is a killer, but the orifice is necessary to limit the amount of oil pumped up into the cam area.
     
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  9. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    #159 Rifledriver, Oct 31, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
    Silicone is never to be used on the gasket surface between the block and transaxle. The main oil passage flows through it (after the oil filter) and it is impossible to prevent the sealant from intruding into the oil passage and then it will clog the oil restrictor supplying the cylinder heads causing the damage seen here. Every Ferrari shop should know that. Only anerobic sealants should be used there.

    The 4 valve Ferrari heads have valve lift, valve size and valve angle specs that combined only allow superficial damage to the pistons. I have seen many with belt failures and never piston damage sufficient to require replacement. Personally I'd use Ferrea valves. Better than OE and far less costly. Heads (and the cam) in that condition are routinely repaired by competent, well equipped machine shops across the USA every week. No need whatsoever to replace it.

    This is low mileage for a TR motor. I have seen many with over 100,000 miles running perfectly and one example with over 250,000 miles running perfectly. I see no reason not to fix the damaged head and putting it back together. If the motor was in good condition before this happened it will be in good condition after the repair. No need to restore a motor with such low mileage in an otherwise good motor other than to enrich the shops bank account.

    The engine and trans should be separated and the silicon cleaned off then the entire oiling system should be flushed especially the passages in the block and heads.

    This has happened to quite a few TR's. Ferrari paid dearly in warranty money learning silicone was a bad choice of sealant.
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Cosworth, really the pioneer in belt drive cams discovered excessive oil flow to the cam bearings increased drag and caused advanced belt wear. Hence the restrictors.
     
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  11. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    Thanks for the explanation.
     
  12. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111

    Many thanks for this. It's exactly what I was looking for when I went to talk to dealer again.
    I'm getting the head(s) from the US ready to go, to bypass as much as possible the EU frustration mill,
    and if the F dealer doesn't get on board, I'm taking the car out of there, much as I hate to since it's partially disassembled.
     
  13. Prova85

    Prova85 Formula 3

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    Great to see Brian posting again. Welcome back.
     
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  14. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    Just talked to them. For a TR it'd be a custom order, they need measurements, about 2 weeks turn around, about $50-70.
     
  15. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I know. They just made a set of 355 valves for me.

    Also that belt protection plate shown in post 107 was the subject of a TSB that was issued while the cars were still in production. It was supposed to be modified to prevent that distortion. Tells me this car never had a belt service by someone who knew what they were doing since it was built.
    The vendor who made them switched materials and the new material distorted from heat. Easily avoided. It is one tell tale I look for to determine the quality of service a car has had.
     
  16. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    Thanks Brian. By easily avoided do you mean getting new ones?

    Personally, I'm not a fan of the rear covers because they make a routine visual check difficult,
    and they're not fully enclosed so if something does get in there it stays there.

    I'll let you guys know who serviced the car so you can have a laugh at the pretense and treachery.
     
  17. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    #167 tamburini44, Nov 1, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
    Regarding the cylinder heads - my plan is to get the rebuilt heads from the US to speed things up.

    The parts catalog lists #121440 as the complete head and valve cover etc with the mention "not for US and CH".
    #120597 is just the head without any mention, so it should be universal.

    This suggests the difference is not in the head itself.
    There are some head studs listed as US and EU only, so that may be the difference.

    I would be getting #120597 with the complete valve train.
    For the valves, the catalog only lists the oversized ones as being different between EU and US models.

    Parts dealer says the US heads should fit the EU model.

    Any comments, experience with this?
     
  18. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Routine inspection not required. By easily avoided I meant the modification should have been done at that cars very first belt change.
     
  19. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    The only difference I am aware of in the cylinder heads is cars with air injection and those without. Looking up head studs the same number is used for all 365BB, 512BB, 512BBi and all Testarossas' up to 91. Also all Testarossa's up through 91 used the same valves. Not sure what your source of information is.

    120957 looks like a number for a head with no valve cover. While they assigned bare heads a number they were never sold that way. The valve cover was machined to a specific head and they are not interchangeable.

    Fix the head you have and get on with the job. Any machine shop worthy of working on the project can fix the head you have. Its done all the time. Clean the cam surface and polish it. Weld the bearing surface in the head and line bore it. Put a few valves in it and you are done. This really is not a complicated repair, don't turn it into one.
     
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  20. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    Actually, the exhaust valve guides are different between the euro and US models.

    Euro #123075
    USA #117565

    Parts guy says the difference is in the alloy used and it shouldn't be an issue.

    Does anyone know more about this?

    Not being able to use the US heads would be bad.
     
  21. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    The EU is not the US, that's all I got to say. The official Ferrari dealer says the machine shop they normally work with cannot repair the head nor the cam. I know that's nonsense because several UK shops said they can do it, but the lead time is 2-3 months.

    That's why I want to get the heads from the US and bypass all this nonsense.
    But if the valve covers are not interchangeable, it's a problem.
     
  22. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    why not wait so long? soon it is wintertime so no need to hurry
     
  23. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    Down south there's Cali weather. Besides, 2.5 months since the inspection is long enough.

    Another example with failure on both banks. I don't get the Euro fixation with doing a full rebuild, and creating a total nightmare out of this.
    http://www.bostonsportscar.com/90tr.htm
     
  24. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    BTW, the difference between a rebuilt, ready to bolt head from the US and rebuilding the orig head in the UK is $1.5-2k max,
    not counting the value of the damaged head. Considering the wait times and risk it's not worth the hassle.

    Just have to clarify regarding the exhaust valve seats difference, and the head / cam cover being a set.

    On the intake cam, Maranello parts would repair the orig for about $450. Good used cam $6-700.
     
  25. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    romano schwabel
    if you like to sell your old damaged head please send me a pm with what you like to get for it
    if you not like to fix it - or let it fixed
     

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