Top 3 2nd line driver for Ferrari since the 80s? | FerrariChat

Top 3 2nd line driver for Ferrari since the 80s?

Discussion in 'F1' started by ren0312, Jul 19, 2020.

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  1. ren0312

    ren0312 Karting

    Aug 5, 2006
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    Who were the top 3 2nd line drivers for Ferrari since the 80s? For example drivers like Irvine, Massa, Larini, Barichello, Arnoux, etc. Basically other than stars like Alonso, Vettel, Schumacher etc? Could both Alesi and Berger be as considered 2nd line drivers?
     
  2. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

    Sep 30, 2012
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    Same as the best 1st line driver we had since 2006. Kimi!
     
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  3. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,252
    Irvine--no,
    Massa--yes,
    Larini--no,
    Barichello--yes,
    Arnoux--I don't remember well enough
     
  4. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
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    Not sure I would consider either Alesi or Berger as 2nd line drivers. Kimi under Vettel certainly, Massa for sure.
    I am hoping for some long overdue recognition for two heroic Ferrari drivers--Patrick Tambay and Mika Salo.
     
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  5. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    Salo giving up an enormous sacrifice with his first (and only) F1 win...I bet it hurts even today. Less so if Irvine won the title...

    My list:
    Kimi (relegated to #2 in his 2nd stint)
    Barrichello
    Massa

    Alesi/Berger...was there a #1/2 back then? In the team's circumstances? They weren't exactly picking up race wins...anywhere.
     
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  6. Top speed

    Top speed Formula Junior

    Jul 4, 2020
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    Alesi/Berger were pretty much equal status. Berger was #1 in 1987 (started #2 to Alboreto, but took #1 role quickly) and in 1988. I don't get where this narrative of Ferrari sucking completely in the early 90's comes from, they were usually the #3 team behind McLaren, Williams or Benetton. Sure they didn't fight for the championship, but they indeed did pick up 1-2 wins per season (something we can only dream of this season).
     
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  7. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

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    Hmm, drivers that were 2nd's but could have won on their own...

    Barichello
    Massa
    Irvine
    Mansell - cause he was clear #2 in 1990.

    I think Arnoux, Alboreato, Berger, Alesi were never really contenders... clearly good drivers but ALWAYS overshadowed by the superstars.. Prost, Lauda, Senna, Mansell, Piquet...

    I think Tambay was actually the 1st class driver for Ferrari in 82 - and relegated to #2 in 83 .... way too many politics for him.
     
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  8. Adrian Thompson

    Adrian Thompson Formula Junior

    Apr 28, 2004
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    If we're going back to the 80's what about Stefan Johansson? A great if not exceptional racer. Solid performances backing up Alboreto in 85, who don't forget got 2nd in the WDC that year. He finished ahead of Alboreto in 86. He was also a very likable guy with personality and charm to match.
     
  9. arkferrari

    arkferrari Karting
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    Feb 9, 2004
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  10. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    Trailer Swift
    Barichello
    Massa
    Raikkonen
     
  11. Top speed

    Top speed Formula Junior

    Jul 4, 2020
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    I'm sorry but Irvine shouldn't have even been anywhere near a top team car, horrendous pace and couldn't even win the title in 99 even though Schumacher tried single-handedly drag his ass to championship (I'm so glad Häkkinen won).

    Mansell is a bit overrated, he wasn't any better than Berger in 1989, Berger's Ferrari broke down practically 80% of the season. Otherwise they were quite equally matched in pace. If Mansell and Piquet could win a championship in the right car, so could have Alesi and Berger.
     
  12. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
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    Single-handedly? Not exactly. As mentioned previously Mika Salo did a fine job subbing for Michael and gave away a race win(it would have been his only victory) to Irvine. After his accident in July, Michael returned for the last two races and rather dropped the ball at Suzuka. I watched the race in Maranello on the jumbotron and the crowd was outraged. Everyone thought that Michael deliberately let Hakkinen win.
     
  13. Top speed

    Top speed Formula Junior

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    How did he drop the ball? Didn't Häkkinen with his McLaren just simply out pace everyone on that race, he led the whole race from start to finnish.
     
  14. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

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    I disagree.

    Irvine was a good driver and had it not been for Schumacher being the clear #1 - he could have had a better chance. Schumacher did not help Irvine at all during the championship... and regardless it was a car set up for Schumacher ... very oversteery...

    Mansell in a superior car is a superior driver. in an average car - average driver. That he was beaten by Piquet shows how delicate his psyche was / is. in 92 - the Williams was so far superior to any car... hard to not see him winning. while I was never a major Mansell fan... He is a good guy... In 1991 was in Montreal for the race - I had Paddock / pit credentials , and my buddy met me up there with his son - they had General admission tickets. so after Friday Practice I went and brought them both into the paddock... ( Anne Richard who ran the club was a friend of mine ) and we were walking up and down the pit. My friends son was about 11 years old, and had a Williams hat on. as we were walking Mansell comes out of the garage and sits on a pile of tires talking to 5-6 media guys... TV and print... so we stop and watch, Mansell gets up takes the hat off my friends kid's head, and gives him his hat, puts the sons hat on, gets a pen from the journalist - signs both hats, and just patted him and said " you think we can win on Sunday?" friends son says I hope so! " I'll make you a deal, if I win you come down here right after the race and I'll give you my glove.." looks at me and his father and says just tell them to ask for Stuart and he'll get you down to the garage." So what happens - he runs out of gas in the lead.
     
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  15. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
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    Great story Tom but Nige didn't run out of fuel. IIRC as he was cruising around waving to the crowd he didn't maintain sufficiently high revs and suffered a hydraulic or electrical shut down. Nigel was absolutely fierce on his day, especially in Indycar.
     
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  16. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    Before Michael broke his legs, the car had been moving forward for at least 2 years.
    During recovery, the car was going down hill with Irvine driving,
    After Michael got back in, the car started to move forward again.

    {It is true Michael wanted the front end planted--which some might read as oversteering easily.}
     
  17. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

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    From my recollection Schumacher honed his skills in shifter karting... which is very much over steer... so he liked the cars set up that way. The Bennetton was very "pointy" and on the edge...

    not trying to argue, I think Irvine was a very quick driver but lacked the same ability to set the car up... and get the team around him. He usually took what was given him...a la Jaguar.
     
  18. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

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    you are right... I remember watching on the monitors he was waving at the crowd and then stopped ... I think he did something to the gear shift or something like that , that overrode the computer and the car stalled... I just remember people saying he was out of gas... which was wrong.

    you have to give him credit - when the car was good he was great.
     
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  19. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
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    I recall the comment by the then Ford CEO when reviewing compensation, "What does Ed Irvine do for us and why are we paying him so much"?
     
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  20. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    That's the version given by Patrick Head.

    Nelson Piquet, who inherited the win and wasn't Mansell's best friend, had a good giggle every time he told the story.
     
  21. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I put Irvine in the same category as James Hunt or Jenson Button.

    Very fast drivers with lots of natural talent, but never fully focused on the job.

    The 3 of them were mostly interested in having a good time, and not willing to put the extra effort when needed.

    Since they were of above normal ability, they went far in F1 (2 of them WDC, Irvine not far from that).
     
  22. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

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    I was actually at that race... it was a bit boring. we were up in Allsports Paddock club suite at the time...I was standing next to Isabella Rossalini... she was a huge Patrese fan... and like Piquet as well. she grabbed my arm when he won "via Nelshino" I wish I had an IPhone back in those days... literally there was Bernie, Paddy McNally, John Hoagan, Pasquale Lattandue... huge group of Italians with Segafredo... I was working for Marriot at the time, and the deal was we were going to do all the food for Paddock club at a really low price, but got all the Food & beverage concessions for the next US GP, then would go to Mexico, and then Montreal... for next 3 years. Then the future plan was to do a mobile Paddock club kitchen in Europe based in Geneva and we'd get Freddy Giradet to be the Chef consultant for all the food .... Sadly .. in 1992 - there was no US GP, and Marriott was exiting direct hotel ownership ...so they had no interest in the business in Europe.... so there went all my hard work... and my Paddock connections.... Anne Ricard left ( retired about 2 years later, and Gerard Busse left as well... so I did not have a direct with Bernie and Paddy any more. then in 98 they actually sold Paddock club rights ... to FIA / FOM kind of using my idea...
     
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  23. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

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    yes- totally agree. Irvine was pretty arrogant as well... Hunt not so much,,, Button later in his career was actually a very nice person...
     
  24. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

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    Vettel enters the room ,just for 1 season.
     

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