Too Dam Hot 365GT4 2+2 with 400I engine | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Too Dam Hot 365GT4 2+2 with 400I engine

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by Choptop400, Nov 24, 2019.

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  1. Choptop400

    Choptop400 Karting

    Oct 10, 2014
    138
    Huntington, NY
    Full Name:
    Frank L Caponi
    Doctor Mark. I have though of that and will test when I put everything back together. Before pulling apart there was air flow through the radiator when the fans were on. Not sure if there was one pulling and one pushing (owned a 1973 MGB that was wired that way, the British!) but the last mechanic that took care of the Ferrari was top notch out in California and I would think he would have notice. In either case with everything pulled apart, I will test before reinstalling the front valance. With respect to the timing, that will have to wait till everything is back together and I have completed the PMI.

    Thanks

    Frank
     
  2. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
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    Edmonton, AB Canada
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Frank,

    Just a heads up, but one has to be mindful that painting can actually limit a metal's ability to dissipate heat. That is not to say that what you painted already is going to be a problem, but simply be aware of this and use quality paints with as little thickness as needed to achieve the desired result.

    BTW... I think what you have done looks great!

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  3. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day again Frank,

    I would check to see what was done on the originals. If one really wanted to coat the surfaces with paint, etc then the best would be some form of a epoxy based paint. There are some that when cured are pretty much impervious to solvents, etc... and the only way to remove this paint is only by blasting (abrasive means). As mentioned in my earlier response... this may affect the ability of the tank to dissipate heat and depending upon the epoxy paint this could be an issue.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  4. Choptop400

    Choptop400 Karting

    Oct 10, 2014
    138
    Huntington, NY
    Full Name:
    Frank L Caponi
    Thanks Sam, I used Eastwood's Radiator paint to refinish the different parts. It is especially made for these parts and is very fine and made to handle temps up to 300 degrees F. Takes several coats to get it right.

    Frank
     
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  5. markcF355

    markcF355 F1 Rookie
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    Jun 6, 2004
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    If the o-ring(s) leak, you'll see white goo under the radiator cap. The car will also over heat because the system won't hold pressure. The lower pressure allows the water to boil at a lower temperature which is right around where the car wants to run.
     
  6. Choptop400

    Choptop400 Karting

    Oct 10, 2014
    138
    Huntington, NY
    Full Name:
    Frank L Caponi
    I don't that this is the issue as the coolant is clear (no oil) and the bottom of the cap is spotless. Having said that, I am working away on making sure every wearable part has been updated. How often do these O rings need to be replaced? I do not have a record in all the receipts that this has ever been done (That makes me assume that it has never been done).
     
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall
    Good choice. A thin layer of black paint aids in heat dissipation. There is a reason radiators are painted black.
     
  8. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall
    I worked in a dealer with triple digit temps in the summer as the norm for a number of years and we sold and serviced quite a few 400's. Their cooling system was quite compatible with that environment with everything working correctly.

    It was mentioned earlier but I'd do a test for presence of exhaust gas in the radiator, specifically HC. It would be an indicator of leakage around the fire rings. I am not a huge fan of the litmus fluid testers as suggested, they are not very sensitive especially if the car is running very clean as 400's can.

    I would also look at the timing. The distributor drive shaft can move lengthwise on those causing timing changes.
     
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  9. markcF355

    markcF355 F1 Rookie
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    Just FYI. The MSD probably doesn't control the ignition advance. It steam comes up through the lower seal, the bearing seize causing the timing to be stuck at starting timing advance. When the RPM go up, the timing won't advance causing the engine to overheat.
     
  10. markcF355

    markcF355 F1 Rookie
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    Wow, my last post looks like those things where only the first and last letter are correct. Sorry.
     
  11. Choptop400

    Choptop400 Karting

    Oct 10, 2014
    138
    Huntington, NY
    Full Name:
    Frank L Caponi
    Just wrote the below thread for another thread. Brings everybody up to date:
    Let me jump in. I had a post, hot to dam hot (365gt4 with a 400i replacement motor). After several months of several while you are at it issues leading to replacing all hoses, belts, oil lines, re-taping a pulled stud and having the radiator boiled out and flow tested (6 months of fun in my garage). I put everything back together and it still was running to hot for my liking (100 Celsius). I dropped off the Ferrari at Berlinetta Motocars Ltd near my house in Huntington NY. After consulting and testing a few items (30 minutes) it was determined that the 2 fans installed in 1980 were not strong enough to pushed enough air thought the radiator to cool the car correctly. The solution was installing 2 fans off a Mercedes with triple the power and CFM along with a custom shroud and two 50 amp replays. So far so good. Have not tested the Ferrari in 100 degree (Fahrenheit) but the temp never goes over 90 degrees Celsius and the fan shut off when under power. Good luck with your project and make sure you are pushing or pulling enough air.

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  12. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
    Lyon (FR)
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    R. Emin
    This shroud is much better at low speed, but probably restricting the airflow at high speed. Maybe you should add cooling flaps to this shroud? https://www.srbymichael.com/index.cfm?ptype=product&product_id=24

    Also, the 400i has a leaner mixture than the 365 so it does require a bit more cooling.When swapping the engine did they also install the 400i additional fan? I can understand why your mechanic identified the Lucas as your weak-point: in the 412, these were replaced by the ASTI ones. If even the flimsy ASTI are better it speaks volumes regarding the capability of the Lucas... I stll like the look of the Lucas though!
     
  13. Choptop400

    Choptop400 Karting

    Oct 10, 2014
    138
    Huntington, NY
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    Frank L Caponi
    Flaps seem to be a great idea. Might think about them. The front valance is still off , getting some glass work and a re-spray. The shroud only covers the bottom of the radiator. The top has some exposure to free flowing air. He is an additional picture.
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  14. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Dec 26, 2001
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    Pretty shroud but a bit of a banana move because it's preventing a significant amount of additional airflow as the car moves down the road. Skip the flaps, toss the shroud and leave it open.
     
  15. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
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    Dec 23, 2007
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    North Pole AK
    A question. You say the temp is 100. Is this with the car sitting still? What happens when you drive at a steady 50-60 mph? Does the temp go down. The ram airflow at those speeds are far greater than any fan you could ever install in the car. If the temp doesn’t change when you are driving and based on what you have done to the car I’d suspect the temp gage isn’t accurate. Have you tested it or changed the sensor?
     
  16. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
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    There is a bit of yes and no here... First At low speed his setup will cool the car down better. He's got a cab, so not sure the car is being driven very often at full speed.

    As far as airflow is concerned, lower input may under certain circumstances generate more cooling. In an ideal world the airflow exit should be approximatively three time bigger than the airflow entrance in order to have negative pressure in the engine bay.

    Our cars do have positive pressure in the bay: at high speed, hot air finds its way in the cabin through whatever hole is present in the firewall (so more pressure in the engine bay than the cabin). Some 400i do have bigger bonnet grill this should help. Maybe that replacing the collector heatshield would also help: on my car these are almost sealing the airflow.
     
  17. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Dec 26, 2001
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    You're reaching and unless you did an actual pressure test for this airflow issue you speak of you're guessing. And if there's some pressure is it really a factor here? Blocking a portion of the rad does not improve cooling and the hood grill is there to prevent pressure buildup at speed. My car runs cool with the original rad and rad fans regardless of the speed I travel. With the lower shroud there the cooling may be better at low speeds ONLY because the fans are a 300% increase over stock as per the OP and they would cycle on more than the stock fans to maintain the temp. The issue is simple, the car runs hot because something undiagnosed is wrong with it and the fans are a patch.
     
  18. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
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    That's correct (guess estimates on my side). Under normal circumstances, best advice would be to bring the car to factory spec and chase any issue on the system. The truth is that factory spec do not apply to this car that was a 365 converted to 400i. I doubt the car was fully upgraded to 400i specifications: for instance the 365 has a smaller radiator and 2 Lucas fans. 400i has a bigger radiator that protrudes below the spoiler (365 spoiler is flat) and an additional ASTI fan (3 fans total).

    Here are my own assumptions on THIS car:

    1) His radiator tap is on the right whereas it's on the left on my car (dec 81 400i). I assume he still has the small 365 radiator. This could explain the overheating as the original radiator design was replaced by the factory for good reason on the 400i (bigger radiator that protrudes below the spoiler).
    2) His radiator does not have mountings for the third fan, so let's assume he only has two fans. In this case the two Mercedes fans are somehow compensating for the missing ASTI.

    At the end of the day, his very unique car works as it is now... I would pay attention to the ammeter at low speed and temp gauge at high speed.


    (PS: Got to agree however that a laser gun would help validate that some cylinders are not overheating: clogged injector or WUR can make part of the engine way to lean.)
     
  19. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
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    Choptop shroud is blocking some air, but as previously said maybe not so much. The red portion is already blocked by the spoiler "bump". What's highlighted in blue is however a real airflow restriction, but could easily be cut-out if need be.

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    I am currently repairing a 400i front spoiler that was fitted on a 365 (The car in this thread https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/looking-for-the-front-of-a-365-gt4-2-2.334354/#post-140755866). I am having quite some work clearing all the extra holes and spacers that were added in order to compensate for the different layout. So the new spoiler was not just a change in styling but part of a complete rework of the cooling system (new spoiler layout plus new radiator plus additional fan).

    For the record:
    • 365 : 2 lucas, smaller radiator, thin spoiler
    • 400 carb : 2 lucas fans, bigger radiator, bigger spoiler
    • 400i gen 1: 2 lucas fans, 1 Asti fan in the back, same big radiator, same big spoiler (maybe the early 400i were equipped like the 400 carb?)
    • 400i gen 2 : ???
    • 412 : 3 asti fans in the back (no more Lucas), radiator & condenser almost touching the front grill

    My assumption here is that choptop engine has no issue, but the 400i engine requires the 400i cooling system (or at least more cooling than the 365). As said checking the engine cylinders with a laser gun is not a bad idea.
     
  20. Choptop400

    Choptop400 Karting

    Oct 10, 2014
    138
    Huntington, NY
    Full Name:
    Frank L Caponi
    Quick update, the Ferrari is running great. First time in a long time. I am in the northeast and weather is cooler now. However, the car temp stays a steady 86.5C driving anything over 10 mph. The Ferrari starts to heat up with stop and go, however as soon as the pace picks up the temp starts to settle back down to 86.5C without the need of the fans kicking on.

    In some stopped traffic, the temp rose to 90C and the fans kicked on and lower the temp between 86.5C and 90C. Have a very close eye on temp gage at all times. The Ferrari is running cooler than it ever has, 86.5 at a steady 50 - 60 miles and hour for over 40 minutes. A good sign that all the work is paying dividends. Will have to wait to next year to see if the work really fixed all the issues.

    With respect to the (I would pay attention to the ammeter at low speed and temp gauge at high speed.) I have check the ammeter (replacement alternator, high output) The meter usually reads plus 15-20 most of the time but when fans kick on the ammeter rise to plus 40. Lights and all electrics seem to be getting plenty of voltage, even at night.

    I am going to keep my fingers crossed and move on the the passenger window that has become dodgy.
     
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  21. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
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    The ammeter does not measure the current flow of the whole system, but the current-flow between the system and the battery. Its objective is only to let you know that you are depleting the battery.

    Under normal circumstances:
    1) when your battery is fully charged, the ammeter should read 0,
    2) when the battery is empty, the ammeter should be positive (i.e some current is flowing toward the battery). That's basically what happens when you've startup the car: the starter has depleted the battery, so system is recharging it for a while.
    3) when the alternator cannot sustain the load, the battery has to compensate, so current is flowing out of the battery (ammeter negative, you are depleting the battery).

    I highly doubt your big alternator can feed your hungry system (including the fans) with electrons and provide an additional 40Amps to charge the battery. In other words your fans are probably connected the other way round. Based on your description, I can assume that the fans do consume 40-15 = 25Amps. If properly connected, your ammeter should read +15A when the fans are not operating and -5A when the fans do kick-in.

    As previously said, my assumption is that the fans are not connected on the correct side of the ammeter shunt (should be connected on the shunt together with the black cables, not the yellow one. Ask your mechanic to either route a wire to the passenger footwell of the car and reach the proper side of the ammeter shunt, or he can directly connect the fans to the alternator output.

    Let's hope I made myself clear.
     
  22. Choptop400

    Choptop400 Karting

    Oct 10, 2014
    138
    Huntington, NY
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    Frank L Caponi
    My car runs cool with the original rad and rad fans regardless of the speed I travel. Newman, when you say your Ferrari runs cool or the correct temperature regardless of speed. Do you mean that the fans do not come on whenever you moving or more specifically when you are in stop and go traffic? I am still mindful of the temperature, here in NE it has been mild, no more than 85F at most, so I have not raised the flag that the problem (if there was one) is solved. But keep in mind, when they transplanted the 400I engine, they were only guessing at the right fans to use within the space allowed.
     
  23. Choptop400

    Choptop400 Karting

    Oct 10, 2014
    138
    Huntington, NY
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    Frank L Caponi
    Raemin, The fans are directly connect to the battery with twin regulators and twin in line fuses between the battery and the regulators. Will send a picture of what was done later.
     
  24. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
    Lyon (FR)
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    Here is an abstract from the owner manual. Battery is (17), Shunt is (78).
    Your fan should be connected on the portion highlighted in red (battery > Shunt > fans).

    If your fans are connected to the battery, it is easy to extend the cable so as to reach the passenger footwell where the shunt is located.

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  25. Choptop400

    Choptop400 Karting

    Oct 10, 2014
    138
    Huntington, NY
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    Frank L Caponi
    Thank you, will check this out tonight or the weekend.
     

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