Time Suggested for Timing Belt replacement on 550?

Ferrari flat rate manuals are works of fiction. I have never seen a shop go by them except for warranty repairs.

 

Shops do not charge by the hour for routine work. They all charge by the market rate for a particular job. Sometimes it comes out to a lot per hour, sometimes not. Just like the grocery store. The markup for every product on the shelf at Safeway is different and reflects the market value.

 

E- Plus your question is not precise enough to get an accurate answer. Are you talking about a lock and swap or will the cams have to be degreed? Two different answers. Cost for a typical cambelt change might be more useful info. Mine have ranged from $1200 for a pure lock and swap (dealer to dealer job) to $5000 for a five year with all seals, cams degreed, etc. The $1200 will likely never be repeated in the US.

 

I wonder, whether degreeing of the cams is really necessary, or asked otherwise, do the professionals here confirm that indeed in at least some cases the adjustment was significantly out of order after swaping the belts? Or is it rather a matter of precaution for the case that a mechanic did not work very carful when doing the swap?

 

In my opinion degree must be done every time the belt comes out.

The problem was not that the piston damage any valve, because that could esly be checked with cam marks.

Only when you do or see a degree job you really understand how many degrees you could advance or retard without visible change on cam marks.

The ignition could not be done at the best moment and that could increase exhaust mainfold temperature or poor performance.

 

I am wondering for this reason.

The new car, with new belts, is degreed at the factory.

Upon use of the belt it "stretches", although very little. So you get a contineously increasing cam degree deviation from the initial setting.

If you replace the old belt with a new one, and this new one has the same number of teeth and exactly the same circumference like the old one when new, then a swap will automatically correct the "creeping" deviation again to the original cam setting.

If there is a tolerence in the circumference, this tolerance would be expected to be within the range of or lower than the variation new/old belt? If so, why then do a correction, which you have not bothered about during the lifetime of the old belt?

If the circumference tolerance in the production of new belts is rather large, then indeed degreeing will make sense. But I wonder, whether this tolerance is indeed not negligible? The profs will know ...

 

How do you do after change the cam seals?

Ferraris are precision machines that must be keep on any job performed

 

In general, if you cannot confirm someone you trust did the cam timing, best to get it correct the first time. After that if you have no leaks, whether to do a lock and swap is between you and your tech. Many Ferraris came from the factory with timing not spot on for at least one camshaft. Also the possibility exists an unknown tech fouled up the job earlier. After 14-19 years, you would hope none of the 550s are still on their original set of belts and the odds are original cam timing has been lost.

 

I do but I don't use it and neither does anyone else.

I told you, it is a work of fiction.

And there is no listing for doing the belts without degreeing the cams. I guess that's a message huh?

 

I don't have access to the official source but two official dealers in western Switzerland quoted me 14.3hrs to change the belts on my car so I guess that might be the official ticket for the 575M! I asked a third outfit (actually a noted racing engine builder) for a comparative quote and he also quoted a rate which came back to 14.3hrs (my assumption was that he was prepared to take my money but may have outsourced the work to one of the two local dealers). None of them seemed to be interested in explaining what it was exactly that took so long - it was a take it or leave it price.

In the end I was pointed in the direction of another official dealer just 100kms from where I live who was prepared to do a lock and swap for me and charged just 5/6hrs (as part of an annual service).

One difference between the 550 and the 575M is that if the cam cover gaskets need replacing on the 550, the cams have to come off and therefore, the timing will need to be reset. On the 575M, the seals can be replaced without removing the cams [Please correct me if I am mistaken here].

Taz mentioned that it is possible that the timing on any one (or more) of the 4 cam shafts could have been set at a sub-optimal level, either at the factory or as the result of a subsequent timing job - but who's to say that such errors will not be repeated the next time a tech tackles the job?

I can't quite get my head around the statement that 'the odds are original cam timing has been lost' because as I see it, as long as the cams are locked in place, there should be no issue putting the new belts on and 'maintaining' the timing as before so all that is left is the job of carefully setting the tension.

 

i'm thinking these belts are good for the life of the car......

 

They are definately good for the life of the engine. When a belt fails your engine is dead.
GTS Bruce

 

MB- Yup, the cam seals can be changed on the 575M without pulling the cams.

 

Is it true that you cannot replace the cam cover gaskets on a 550 without taking the cams off? Or are you talking about the cam seals?

 

OK, this is indeed a very good argument. The need to have it done once properly, "just in case" ... . In fact even a good argument to do it yourself, provided that you have the knowledge and facilities for this job. Only then you can be sure that it is perfect. Or who to blame, if something goes wrong .

I would estimate in the range of 8-10 hours for doing the job including degreeing. And suggest investing in additional 1-2 hours for replacement of the intake gaskets (if still the inferior original ones are present) and water hoses in the V.

 

It is an interesting discussion. IMHO, cam timming "if" correct should not need redoing each belt change.
When the valve clearances are out then the timing will change. However when the clearances are reset to the factory spec which is done is also when the belts are changed and hence the timing is also reset.

My own experience with vernier adjustable cams is they are often played with by people who believe the marks on the cam and cap should be aligned. Those marks are just the initial assembly points.
I do also think that FERRARI would do the initial assembly with the correct timing, however production tolerances are often wider than service tolarences.

 

Just like BMW transmission oil.

 

The job is always easy for the guy that doesn't have to do it.

 

The guys at "my" Ferrari dealership know what kind of jobs I do myself. So they know that I know how long something will take, carefully working without haste. In turn, I never ever had any argument with them about the hours they charged, in those cases where I preferred to have them do it, because the prospect of spending many hours doing it myself during the weekend was opposed by the best wife of all. It rather happened once and a while that the billed hours were less than that what I would have believed to need for this job.

 

Brian knows it, Ferrari flat rate...then multiply by 1.5 or 2 to get a realistic time.

 

That is pretty much an industry standard. With Ferrari the factory manuals are all that exists and those are written to reflect what the factory wants to pay for warranty and even the guys at FNA admitted the times were just absurd with inconsistency that defied explanation. Before the days of their computerized filing system the reps would work with us to arrive at a fair amount to perform the repair. That went away in the late 80's or early 90's as I recall and coincided with some pretty dramatic changes in their attitude towards customer satisfaction. The rest of the auto industry uses aftermarket manuals which all have the multiplication factored in.

A good example of Ferrari time is a 360 valve cover gasket. A common problem on them when new. It paid .6 hrs. 36 minutes. The end result was those oil leaks never got fixed under warranty.

Trust me, multiplying that x2 does not come close to covering it.

 

Graeme- The 550 and 575M have hydraulic lifters, so valve clearance is not an issue. On earlier Ferraris with shim adjustments, Ferrari recommends setting the clearances on the applicable valves to .050 mm for cam timing.