430 Throttle response

Have you checked both ECU's for codes lately? This problem may not cause a CEL but it can throw codes in the ECU.

The 430 has a very similar drive-by-wire system to the 360. I had a similar problem with my car when I first got it. I called it "turbo lag" even though there was no turbo. It just felt laggy.

Fast forward a few months and the car went into pedal limp mode (20% throttle only). The problem was diagnosed as a throttle body failure. I spent quite a lot of time and effort devising a way to test these little buggers and figure out how they work and more importantly, how they fail. I managed to avoid paying a massive F tax and instead of replacing both TB's with new (the recommended procedure), I managed to find a used unit on eBay that matched up with the performance of my one good TB. Problem solved and no more turbo lag.

Three places to look:

1. Be sure your accelerator potentiometer (foot pedal) is working properly.
2. If you're running original MAF's, change them.
3. If all else fails, it's probably a throttle body.

I wrote an article for my blog on the topic:

https://www.ferrari360.org/2020/07/bosch-throttle-body-replacement.html

 

My throttle response had deteriorated to the point of it feeling laggy, too. I swapped in new MAFS, and the instant response is back.


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What’s a MAF you(like me) ask?

“The MAF is actually a Mass Air Flow sensor. It measures the mass of the air that is entering the engine so that the correct amount of fuel will be injected into the air stream. When it is working properly it helps achieve the best balance between air and fuel and this gives you the best gas mileage and a smooth running engine regardless of the air temperature outside. When it is not working properly, the engine can have too much fuel (rich) or too little (lean), both of which are bad for the engine.” ~ HighRoad Automotive

My 27,000 mile 2008 F430 gives what I estimate is a half-second audible, gasp of air when you floor it, in or out of gear, before the engine accelerates... MAF problem?


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Funny, I, and others, have this issue w 360’s. I noticed if I depress the clutch it revs crisply (I know that doesn’t really help with rev matching). I kinda got used to a double press/feathering of the throttle to rev match.

I have a new pair of MAF’s waiting to be installed when I get it back on the road to see if this fixes the issue.

It must be a known problem because IIRC, 360trev has a ecu fix for this. Don’t quote me on that it was sitting somewhere in my long term memory.

 

From your description, it doesn't sound like the foot pedal. It can easily be checked with a OBD code reader that shows the accelerator potentiometer (AP) voltages. Download the app EOBD Facile and buy a cheap ELM327 (<$15) for the lowest cost option.

To test, sit in your car, engine off, key on, and read the live data for AP pot 1 and 2. Note the voltages. The higher should be twice the lower within about 200 mV (.2 volts). So if the high voltage reading is 4v, the lower should be 2v within 200mV (+/- 0.1v). Press the pedal to half. Note the volts. Then full. Note again. If the voltages are not within the tolerance, the AP is bad. If it passes, start at zero throttle and very slowly press the pedal stopping to do the math. If you see the voltage drop to zero or spike, bad. If it stays within tolerance, the AP is probably not the problem.

Another more true to life test might be to go zero to full several times fast and stop at a random place and check the voltages. Do this a couple of times to see if anything goes out of tolerance.

 

Great blog post!

So cayenne throttle bodies can be used to rebuild 360 throttle bodies- very helpful feedback.

Did you look into how viable it would be to just modify the cayenne throttle bodies to include the breather connection?


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I did. It technically looks possible. My concern would be whatever modification was done would have to be such that a failure wouldn't cause something to be sucked into the engine. There's nothing between the TB and all those expensive moving parts. The OEM TB case appears to be quite robust and I doubt that it would fail. From my analysis, it's probably a bit easier and safer to just replace the internals.

 

My 27,000 mile 2008 F430 gives what I estimate is a half-second audible, gasp of air when you floor it, in or out of gear, before the engine accelerates... MAF problem?

 

It should be razor sharp. Remember that plugs are due at 30k.

The cause could be anything. ECU data logging can help identify the cause.

 

Is this ECU reader decent? https://www.foxwelltool.com/wholesale/nt510-multi-system-scanner-with-one-fre-car-brand-software-and-obd.html

 

Maybe a vacuum leak. Worn (contaminated) MAFS do not result in audible air gasps.


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Would that show up on the ECU reader?

 

Not necessarily. My MAFS were clearly contaminated because that’s the only thing I changed and the improvement was very noticeable. But no codes before I changed them. I had about 33k miles at the time.

The same type (but not exact parameter) Bosch sensors were also in use on a number of other cars at the time. This included M5s of that era. My buddies and I all noticed the same thing for our cars. I have no reason to think it’s any different for the MAFS used in 360s or 430s. The contamination was at its worst with cars that used oiled foam air filters instead of paper filters.


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The parts that make up the Bosch Motronic ME7 system have a lot of tolerance built in before they are considered failed. What the ECU does with that tolerance is the big question. The only one I know who might have a solid answer is 360Trev. From my anecdotal evidence, it seems the ECU makes up the difference in the tolerances by adding padding or lag or some other rounding system to keep everything happy. It's when the part goes out of tolerance that the ECU starts throwing trouble codes.

In my experience with the throttle bodies, the amount of tolerance is quite large. The lag from zero throttle to full can be under 200 ms for a new unit and twice that on an old one that's not throwing codes yet. And... there are two throttle bodies on most Ferrari's. The ECU has to balance the differences between the tolerance of the left and right units and come up with a solution. Again, lag, buffering and lower response seems to be the answer.

That's why people who simply change out older Bosch parts for new ones see a nearly instantaneous improvement in something. It could be smoother running, faster throttle response, more power, different sound. The ME7 system is the heart of these cars and it's where the improvements can be found that don't require breaking into anything bathed in oil. Very DIY.

 

Great analysis! The system is used in a wide variety of cars, so for some of those applications, especially with a torque converter automatic, I’m guessing that the laggy response is tolerable. But not for a 360 or 430.


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MAFs rarely throw a useful code, at least on our age of vehicle: their performance can be degraded to the point of being completely useless, but they still won't throw a CEL.

In my experience data logging is the best way to go, normally MAF voltage

 

If I disconnect and inspect the MAFS, it it obvious if they are bad?

 

No.


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See post .#21 in thread below about the trev’s instant torque patch. This is what I was referring to In my prior post.


360 CS airbox and 430 air flow meters
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/index.php?threads/360-CS-airbox-and-430-air-flow-meters.414168/


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