There is hope | FerrariChat

There is hope

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by papou, Jul 14, 2021.

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  1. papou

    papou Formula 3
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  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    H2 probably is a better solution for heavy vehicles than BEV (as it can be relatively easily transported and quickly refueled), but it still sucks -- or do you have a lot of H2 just laying around to be easily exploited (desalinated sea water, windmills, and electrolyzer factories don't grow on trees either)?
     
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  3. Alex308qv

    Alex308qv Formula Junior

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    There’s hydrogen converted to work in an internal combustion engine like this (BMW made 7-series cars in 2005 with hydrogen IC engines) and hydrogen converted to work in a proton exchange membrane fuel cells which creates electrons for an electric motor by passing H2 and O2 (using air) over a palladium catalyst (basically “electrolysis in reverse”). My understanding is the fuel-cell approach is more efficient conversion of hydrogen as it’s done at much lower temperature (very little exhausted heat) plus the electric motor develops full torque at zero RPM. You don’t need as many batteries as in BEV (like a Tesla) because you are producing the electricity inside the vehicle; that is, you don’t need to store a lot of it. Having said that, I’m sure there’s a case to be made in certain applications for a hydrogen IC engine.
     
  4. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Hydrogen is not green.

    You get it by using a lot of electricity (from other forms of energy -- usually not renewable) to break down natural gas (you know, the stuff we get from FRACKING). When broken down you have hydrogen and -- C02. You know -- the green house gas. This C02 is released back into the atmosphere.

    When burned hydrogen forms with oxygen and the outcome is water vapor (also a green house gas).

    Until there is a green way to develop and transport hydrogen its actually less green than just burning natural gas.

    This is why you never hear about hydrogen as a "green energy source" when solar, wind, and geothermal are brought up.
     
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  5. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    There is no free lunch..ever. something is always made from something else. Electric currently is the best option. Like it or hate it..it is reality.
     
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  6. Alex308qv

    Alex308qv Formula Junior

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    The majority of the world’s electricity today also comes from fossil fuels (gas, coal, oil). The majority of hydrogen comes from the steam reformation of natural gas, a fossil fuel. All are right in that the “holy grail” is getting the source energy from renewables. Or at least sequestering the CO2 that’s produced from fossil fuel energy sources. Then it comes down to which technology has the best “source to wheel” efficiency for the intended application.
     
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  7. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    You do indeed draw on coal for power which creates pollution. But let's eliminate the exhaust emissions and oil consumption and parts consumption and the manufacturing of said parts.

    Not only will you reduce pollution, you will also have more power available on the grid. For example, 24hr gas stations. One gas stations power draw in 24hrs I'll bet could charge 20 electric cars for a week.
     
  8. JJ

    JJ F1 World Champ
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    But one gas station fuels 1200 cars for two weeks each day.
     
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  9. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Yea..how much power does refining crude consume? Then transport to the gas station, then the gas station powering the pumps, lights, etc. Eliminate it..lots of power being saved. These grid arguments are just plain silly. It will be just fine.
     
  10. JJ

    JJ F1 World Champ
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    You want to handwave away 100 years of real-world success on some pipe dream and I'm the *******? Guess I'm silly, then. Enjoy your overwokeness.

    You've stopped working on ICE cars, right?
     
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  11. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    No I have not. And I will continue to keep them on the road. But I'm not stupid either. I know change is coming. And I would be an idiot not to prepare for those chnages. I have spend quite a bit of time analyzing the pros and cons of gas vs electric, and electric wins every damn time. It is not just what comes out of the tail pipe. It is the entire product, and what it takes to keep the product on the road. The ICE car is the most pollution producing item man has ever made.
     
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  12. Ivan Drago

    Ivan Drago Formula Junior

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    Don't autos "only" account for 30% of pollution? What about massive cruise liners, factories and the incredible number of private planes that are out there? I don't have a problem with electric, but I dislike the fact that the auto industry is being forced in that direction, while things like cruise ships get a free pass. Nothing will ever replicate the sound, feel and sheer excitement of a naturally aspirated V12, or even Ferrari's famed V8. Sad that it will all become a distant memory at some point.
     
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  13. BJK

    BJK F1 Rookie

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    What about the massive forest fires out west that seem to burn 8 months of the year now?
    That has to negate all 'green' efforts for the last 10 years!

    .
     
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  14. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Agree. I think Porsche has started to show the way with the Taycan — an electric car that looks and drives like more than an appliance. Apart from the pollution and hazards of ICE cars, the maintenance and comparatively slow performance could get the general public on board the electric wave.

    I’m watching intently to see how Porsche and Ferrari sort out how to translate the sports car ethos to the electric world. If they can scrap the sad four cylinder engine in the 718 and make an enthusiast’s EV out of these cars, I’m very interested.

    In the meantime, I had solar panels installed in June, so just waiting for the right EV…




    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  15. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Lets use the "cow fart" example to this issue. What is stated below is simply science (namely biology and chemistry). It has nothing to do with "politics"

    We humans irrigate and cultivate land to grow more grasses and plants. We've been doing this for over 10,000 years. That's good. More oxygen from photosynthesis. Humans are the reason for the massive growth in grass on the planet. We protect the land from over use and abuse so that it can continue to grow grass forever. That's a good thing. Sustainability.

    But most grass we cannot eat. Many animals can though. So we feed these grasses to animals. That's good. We get Food. We need food to survive. And creating efficient food sources means fewer people on Earth starve to death.

    Animals give off farts while digesting grasses, which is the chemical breakdown of the grass into energy. The bi-product of their solid and liquid waste is used to re-fertilize the land so it can grow again and again. This cycle allows for more grasslands which extract CO2 and give oxygen back to the atmosphere.

    But what happens if the animals are not there to eat these grasses? Well, the grasses and plants die and turn back into compost which in the process gives off the same gas as car farts.... So isn't it really a wash and possibly -- a positive to grow grass for animals?

    My point is you can't just look at one thing and say "that's green". You have to look at the entire system. That includes where the energy originally comes from and what steps are necessary to make it useful.
     
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  16. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Including the CO2 released by others to generate the $s confiscated from them by the gov't to "invest" in these faux-green boondoggles! -- FIFY ;)
     
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  17. technom3

    technom3 F1 World Champ
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    Electric cars are far from green as well.
     
  18. technom3

    technom3 F1 World Champ
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    I used to work for bmw and we had hydrogen 7 series on the late 90s.
     
  19. RedNeck

    RedNeck F1 Veteran
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    I remember seeing a blurb about this on Motorweek many years ago, it had the woman drinking out of the tailpipe...eghh. I always wondered what happened with that project.
     
  20. RedNeck

    RedNeck F1 Veteran
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    Holy crap, I found it...

     
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  21. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    The same thing that happens to virtually all of the faux-green religion's "good ideas" -- it required using more fossil fuel than the amount of fossil fuel that it "saved" (so couldn't exist unless gov't supplied a lot of other people's money).
     
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  22. ddrewesusa

    ddrewesusa F1 Rookie
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    Minor fender bender, small leak...

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Of course, I’m being a little facetious...
     
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  23. RedTaxi

    RedTaxi F1 Rookie
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    I remember that 7-series. Can hydrogen work in a ICE, yes. But anything hydrogen in our future will be electric with a hydrogen fuel cell making the electricity. A tank of hydrogen, as above, is rather dangerous.
     
  24. papou

    papou Formula 3
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    A tank of petroleum is dangerous, batteries are dangerous, The whole point of my post is that Tesla has set a fire underneath folks
    to start seriously to look for an alternative that works for all..
     
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  25. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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