The way I see it | Page 6 | FerrariChat

The way I see it

Discussion in 'FF/Lusso' started by Infidel, Jan 24, 2011.

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  1. DM18

    DM18 F1 Rookie

    Apr 29, 2005
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    Correction: In 2008 Ferrari sold its' 1,000th car in HK. That took about 20 years. Annual sales now I believe are in the 150 range. A lot for a population of 7mn.
     
  2. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Yes, I corrected that for him a few posts on.

    I totally agree that 150 per year in that market is impressive. Taxes are bloody murder! :)
     
  3. amenasce

    amenasce Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #128 amenasce, Jan 27, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2011
    I love how he compares Ferrari position in China based on sales numbers of GM, Coke and MB.

    I hope he comes back...i was late too this thread and want some fun too!
     
  4. qvpower

    qvpower Formula Junior

    Apr 18, 2004
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    #129 qvpower, Jan 27, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2011
    No matter how china market comes into the discussion to be the FF's raison d'etre... the FF is just plain ugly... If Ferrari just made a dedicated four door sedan, I would have more respect for them as properly going after that market... But using the FF? Come on... There have been plenty of 4 seater coupes with sexier lines. FF looks like a morgue mobile... And the chinese have big taboo on unlucky numbers or even cars resembling a funeral car... All it really takes is for a chinese to comment about the FF looking like a morgue mobile that many will be turned off by it...
    Case and point, in the past, Alfa Romeo had the 164 being sold in Hong kong. The numbers when spoken sounded in Chinese like "road to death" The reaction to the number designation was so bad that Alfa Romeo had to rebadge the cars to be 168 " road to prosperity". Hopefully, Ferrari wont fall into that situation like that with the FF...
     
  5. crinoid

    crinoid F1 Veteran
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    There's got to be a way they could do it gracefully. I think of (as many do) the lotus Elise/Exige and how lotus isn't going to build that type of car anymore. The market is available and a Ferrari sub brand or someone in fiat family could do a Ferrari designed car sans all the electronic aids, sell for 100k all day. Maybe a track only with a single make race. The Dino brand or whatever built in some other facility. Anyway I'm Rambling.
     
  6. Infidel

    Infidel Guest

    Jan 19, 2011
    269
    Southeast, USA
    I didn't mean to abandon this thread. But, today my minions were restless and I had to toss a few into the Pit of Despair and get things running smoothly again.

    Okay, let's see what we have here...

    Yes, yes, yes.

    Congratulations on your GTO! An absolutely stunning machine!

    Now, the points. And I'm just going to hit the big stuff, okay, as I really don't have the time tonight to have a crack at them all.

    First up, I believe it is incorrect to presume a brand cannot serve more than one market. The $440,000 Porsche Carrera GT proved it can work. The $375,000 Lexus LFA is proving it. And the $200,000 MB SLS AMG is, too. These vehicles are very much competing directly with Ferrari's offerings--and oftentimes winning. You, perhaps due to your personal brand loyalty, may not consider them as worthy alternatives. But others do. At the time it ceased production, the Carrera was the best selling super-premium sports car in the world, reportedly. That fact had Ferrari's attention and Fiat's, too.

    The examples (Motor Trend, Car and Driver, so on) I cited earlier demonstrate that the world outside Maranello sees things as do I. Those mags are some of the most popular automobile enthusiast publications in the world. I am sorry, but one cannot simply dismiss them because one doesn't like the comparisons. You may disagree with those comparisons. And the executives at Ferrari may disagree with those comparisons. Yet, the comparisons exist and are repeated, time and again, and are part of the public consciousness. To believe otherwise, respectfully, is to deny they exist.

    Secondly, I don't buy into this notion that exclusivity creates desirability. Look at what's happening to the value of Ferrari's recent models. Have you seen 360 prices lately? Without being harsh, I think we can agree that there is nothing exclusive about them. And the same fate is befalling the 430. Or consider the 550, once Ferrari's flagship. Only @3,600 were produced. And about $65k will get you a nice one. Ferrari values have collapsed/are collapsing just as abruptly, perhaps even more so, than similar MB or Porsche models. So any connection Ferrari's perceived exclusivity has to its desirability is, at best, elusive and fleeting.

    Besides, one could make a strong argument that the SLS AMG is more "exclusive" than the 430, and is probably more or less on par with a 458. And the LFA is more "exclusive" than all of them. I am sure you wouldn't trade your GTO for an LFA, and neither would I. But one cannot deny the LFA and SLS are creating quite a stir right where Ferrari lives. Yes, the Chairman of Ferrari may put on his game face and stoically say, "We don't concern ourselves with such things." But we know he privately does and the folks at Fiat do, too.

    Thirdly, let's discuss this perception of "limited" production. This is more Ferrari mythology than reality. Some models are limited, of course, like the Enzo. But generally, if Ferrari has the orders, it will gladly build all it can manage. Here is a relatively recent Motor Trend headline:

    "Too many Ferraris? Italian automaker secretly ramping up production by some 40 percent"

    The days of Ferrari building truly small batch, limited production line vehicles is long over. Have you been to Maranello? Modena? They are modernized production facilities designed to build volume cars. They look no different than the production lines at Porsche or AMG. And Fiat would like nothing more than to see them humming day and night. You cannot seriously believe otherwise, can you? Isn't that the point of the FF?

    What else? F1. Can you direct me to any source that objectively supports the statement F1 is "one of the most followed sports in the world"? According to one source, auto racing (all of auto racing--F1, NASCAR, Indy, rally, and so on) ranks right behind... tennis. F1 is an awfully slow, expensive and uncertain way for Ferrari to attempt to build better brand recognition in China, a country that has only had an F1 race on the calendar since 2004. I'm sure it is somewhat effective, but I believe Ferrari can and should do far, far more.

    Lastly, within the circles you and I travel, undoubtedly Ferrari is known. But, objectively, a ranking of 93rd of the Top 100 Global brands is not a very good showing--especially when contrasted against the ranking of other marques that offer models that compete against Ferrari; marques that are firmly established in China and growing sales rapidly.
     
  7. Infidel

    Infidel Guest

    Jan 19, 2011
    269
    Southeast, USA
    Its called the Lexus LFA. And it sells for $375,000. And recently a major auto mag compared it against a Ferrari 599 and the LFA walked away with the crown. That's pretty competitive by most people's standards ;)

    And there are plenty of people who prefer a GT-R over a 360 or 430 for a variety of reasons: Price, reliability, performance, cost of maintenance being four of them. That should be pretty obvious considering the resale values of the 360.

    I didn't mean that to sound too harsh. I just mean, you know, maybe that's worth considering?

    Ferrari ranks 93rd out of the world's Top 100 global brands. That fact was established some time ago. Low compared to other marques with competing models. Not a perception, a fact.
     
  8. Infidel

    Infidel Guest

    Jan 19, 2011
    269
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    Yeah, sales.

    Seems like a pretty rational way to determine how well a brand/product is doing.

    And you would establish it... some... other way?

    This I will enjoy reading.
     
  9. Infidel

    Infidel Guest

    Jan 19, 2011
    269
    Southeast, USA
    Neither, actually.

    Those were actual comparos, Viz, not just driving reports or road tests.

    And, really, I have been quite friendly.
     
  10. amenasce

    amenasce Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Ok then, so please compare Ferrari to gap underwear as well. Or Health club memberships.
    Sales is a rational way when you compare sales of comparable products. Whats the point of bringing coke, GM and even MB when they dont really play in the same field.


    I establish how well a brand/product is doing comparing sales y2y and sales versus its competition. You also need to take into account that Ferrari doesn't/cant/wont sell as many cars as its competition from Mercedes because of Exclusivity. Ferrari needs to stay exclusive to be able to demand the price it sells its cars for. Plus they are not tooled to satisfy a 30.000 cars per year pool.

    I would compare Ferrari to Maserati, Aston Martin and Lamborghini. Porsche sells too many different cars to be comparable to Ferrari.
     
  11. amenasce

    amenasce Three Time F1 World Champ
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    The LFA is a pretty cool car but it's a Halo car.It was not built to make money, it has been developped over 10 years and will be limited to 500 units all of which will lose money..so if it didnt rank as high as a 599 which is by comparison a production car, i would have been very disappointed by Toyota.
     
  12. Infidel

    Infidel Guest

    Jan 19, 2011
    269
    Southeast, USA
    This again?

    I've already established beyond any reasonable doubt the MB is but ONE company that produces MODELS that compete directly against various Ferrari MODELS. Porsche does, too. And many other marques.

    In that regard, everything I have posted is entirely germane.

    As for your other points, see my other posts, please.
     
  13. Infidel

    Infidel Guest

    Jan 19, 2011
    269
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    #138 Infidel, Jan 27, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2011
    Agreed. In my first post concerning the LFA, I said exactly that: It is a halo car.

    But it cannot be dismissed just because of that fact.

    I pointed to it as an example of just how quickly and monumentally the competitive field is changing. Think of this... Lexus didn't even exist a little over 20 years ago. And now it's building $375,000 supercars aimed at Ferrari's front door.

    The LFA is not going to last, of course. But it is here now. And others like it are on the way. That was the point of it.

    Think how far Audi has come? Audi used to be a pretty low brow brand. But now? The R8 cannot just be waived off. It's a fine competitor and plenty of people would prefer one over some of Ferrari's models.
     
  14. amenasce

    amenasce Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Lexus is toyota. And Toyota has been around way longer than 20 years ago. I wouldnt bet that a lot of toyota F1 experience has been put to good use by the LFA team.
     
  15. Infidel

    Infidel Guest

    Jan 19, 2011
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    #140 Infidel, Jan 27, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2011
    I was speaking about Lexus, the brand, in terms of time.

    And, yes, I am well aware that Lexus is Toyota.

    To think that lowly Toyota has the design, engineering and manufacturing capability to produce such a machine is exactly the point I am making.

    20 years ago, that would have been entirely unthinkable.

    But today? Man, its a brave, new world.

    And, back to the FF, I just don't see that as being the right move/execution for Ferrari in the new world order of things.
     
  16. Tifosi15

    Tifosi15 Formula 3

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    amensace I think everyone has given up on this guy. The logic here is so far skewed and thick that nothing is going to get through. We all know Ferrari is crazy for not accounting for sales/mass production of German bratwurst :rolleyes:

    Good thread title, "The way I see it"
     
  17. Infidel

    Infidel Guest

    Jan 19, 2011
    269
    Southeast, USA
    Insults at this hour?

    Run along now, unless you want to play nicely and add something to the discussion.
     
  18. Darolls

    Darolls F1 Veteran
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    Awe Sheesh, now I have a migraine!

    This thread has become deadwood......:(
     
  19. ylshih

    ylshih Shogun Assassin
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    Mar 21, 2004
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    Agreed. No discussion actually taking place. Thread closed.
     

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