The Resurrection of #22579 | Page 4 | FerrariChat

The Resurrection of #22579

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by willrace, Sep 22, 2012.

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  1. Spitfire

    Spitfire Formula 3

    Nov 16, 2006
    1,570
    I'll attest to this. IMHO, if one decides to restore a car the first stop is anecdotal; then comes the hands-on element (i.e., visiting the restorer); from this comes trust. Once trust has been established it's simply down to the dollars, time invested, communications, and lots of photos.
     
  2. Fave

    Fave F1 Rookie

    Aug 12, 2010
    4,157
    Tarana
    Full Name:
    L. Ike Hunt
     
  3. Rock

    Rock Formula 3

    Nov 9, 2003
    1,652
    Toronto, Canada
    Full Name:
    Rocco
    I think you missed the part where the op stated it didn't even run properly,
     
  4. Fave

    Fave F1 Rookie

    Aug 12, 2010
    4,157
    Tarana
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    L. Ike Hunt
    something about the backfiring sounding like shooting ducks
     
  5. Rock

    Rock Formula 3

    Nov 9, 2003
    1,652
    Toronto, Canada
    Full Name:
    Rocco
    as quoted by full garage this should give someone alot of pleasure
     
  6. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2007
    2,169
    Tampa bay
    Full Name:
    Bruce
    +1! The only statement I'd add after this is "Period"
     
  7. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,241
    Sarasota Florida
    Full Name:
    Jay
    No not missed.

    I think you're misunderstanding my point. It's not that "The car is close to being a good car"... far from it. It's a nightmare. I'm not excusing the shop- I stated that every restoration needs a gatekeeper- the one guy who oversees everything and whose opinion the owner can trust. That just did not happen here.

    My point is that these cars are a lot of fun, and the OP is invested well beyond the point of no return. The time and expense to get it back to perfection may be completely unreasonable, but the end result should be a really fun car. Drove my 400i 5 speed around town today and and it's always fun to see people taking pictures of the car when you come out of the bank... You don't see white 400s around much these days...
     
  8. 87testa

    87testa Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2006
    274
    Toronto, Ontario
    I applaud the OP for telling us his story. That paint job under no circumstances should have left that shop.

    Earl Scheib would not have been proud of that work.
     
  9. Rock

    Rock Formula 3

    Nov 9, 2003
    1,652
    Toronto, Canada
    Full Name:
    Rocco
    Jay, i'm sorry but these cars are the worst driving ferraris, I have driven them all.

    I like the look of the 400 but it feels like your towing a trailer.

    I have a customer who bought a 400 because of all the good press it has received on this sight, he was bitterly disappointed with the drive.
    He has moved on, at a loss of course. But he is happy that he dodged Kurts bullet
     
  10. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,241
    Sarasota Florida
    Full Name:
    Jay
    Well I guess we'll have to disagree on that one.

    I have a 355, 308GT4, 400i and 412. All very different. There is nothing that eats up the road like a a well setup 400. I've had 928s and Jags and currently have a bunch of 80s Mercedes- These cars are special.

    Now you can't compare the experience to a modern car, but for the pure GT high speed travel experience with the appropriate soundtrack- few cars of the era can match a 400/412. Their "oddness" is what makes them special, to many of us.

    Not a car for everyone I grant you...
     
  11. gto406

    gto406 Karting

    Jan 7, 2008
    54
    Toronto, ON, Canada
    Full Name:
    Brian M.
    What I am wondering is how does the OP (willrace) and the shop (GT) find middle ground, so that something positive comes out of this, and willrace can enjoy this car?

    I realize it may not be in the cards for GT to pull a 'huge wad of cash' out and supply a refund, but there must be something GT would be willing to propose that could help mitigate OP's considerable time/investment in this project?

    Perhaps a good starting point is for willrace to outline (in his opinion) what a reasonable way forward would be with the car (e.g. a repaint of the car by GT or by a neutral 3rd-party)?

    At the same time, GT could outline their proposal on a way forward (e.g. GT to resolve the paintwork with their supplier, and to fix the problematic interior pieces/trim)?

    And please don't shoot the messenger, I am just throwing out example scenarios. All enthusiasts of F-cars (whether they like 400's or not) want to see a positive outcome here.

    That to my way of thinking, is coming out with a plan that gets this gentleman his car back, that doesn't break GT's bank and hopefully preserves their reputation, and everyone is able to move on (perhaps not entirely, but at least content).

    Hopefully, this suggestion may open up some constructive dialogue. It seems well understood that mistakes have been made. It would be great to see a way forward for all parties.
     
  12. CAS

    CAS F1 Rookie

    Nov 6, 2003
    2,683
    San Diego, CA
    Full Name:
    Clint
    I see no excuse for the way the car was reassembled and delivered, regardless of how much unseen mechanical work went into the car. The interor is a disaster and the trim... Its so bad it's almost funny except for the fact its a 400i with appx $100k in it.
     
  13. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Sep 3, 2002
    6,370
    Toronto / SoCal
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    Rob C.
    It is my understanding that GT worked hard to offer a solution to Willrace in private which is where these things should be negotiated. Doing so on a public forum where most of the participants won't even bother reading the whole thread will not likely yield a well-informed unilateral decision. Posting a 'searching for info thread' would have been a much better place to start if a resolution was the objective.

    The OP has chosen to go public and I would think that to do so is to forfeit any offer that was previously on the table. I mean you can't expect to post something like this and expect GT to come running so even if $5K was on offer then this thread at least cost him that much to write.

    From my end I can see where a lack of communication could be an issue here. I twice asked three simple questions that could be answered with three short lines. Both times I got long winded answers that did nothing more than confuse. If this is any indication of the transactions that took place then I'm getting the feeling that things are not as one sided as they seem.

    What I will agree to is that if $5K was the amount allocated to the paint portion of the work then it was over ambitious to attempt at that price but I have seen much worse for more:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=379748
     
  14. mgsamman

    mgsamman Rookie

    Aug 1, 2009
    31
    Seattle / DC / Dubai

    Well put Jay! Well put!
     
  15. michael platzer

    michael platzer F1 Veteran

    Nov 12, 2003
    5,220
    Austria
    Full Name:
    Michael Platzer
    looks good - do you have a pic of the car with new interior?
     
  16. Spitfire

    Spitfire Formula 3

    Nov 16, 2006
    1,570
    Is there anything you don't know about Ferraris, or that you have not driven.
     
  17. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    #92 brettski, Sep 25, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    points taken guys...understood.

    Kurt wrote on May 8th...

    " Inside: Jetting was off, and he's adjusted them as far as they could go to eliminate the lean condition and stop the popping. New jets should have arrived yesterday or today.
    I spent almost an hour driving the car on Saturday with Will (WJHMH on F-Chat), and aside from some residual exhaust pop above idle just after start-up, we agreed that it drives nicely. Handling seems about where I expected - noticeably better than stock, with a pleasant ride. The exhaust sound is probably about right, too, though we had the windows down for the entire drive (91 deg. and no AC yet). Nice sound in the few tunnels we passed through. I can tell that it will be great once it's jetted right for here, and the power/pep is back where it should be."

    he and i had many conservations about the carbs prior to shipping, as the they were set in Ontario during the last weeks of February (below 0)...and it ran beautifully, but would obviously need changes there...

    but i thought he was satisfied with driving, running, handling, cooling, etc. based on his message...or did i misunderstand when he said he could "tell it will be great" after jetting...

    again, there are no excuses for some of the paint work that i see, but there were no stress crack in the body work here, none...and i need answers as to why they are this bad now.

    i paid well for both the body work/paint and interior and only my hard costs were transferred to Kurt...no time, no expenses.

    as for the interior, i had the interior at two trim shops because the first shop finally refused to do any further work with the materials provided...the second shop is amongst, if not, the most highly regarded trim shop in Canada and had the exact same issue with excessive stretch in the leather....

    but i really did try to fight that battle on his behalf and completely compromised a relationship with an important subcontractor, whose done some very fine work for me, over this, only for the second trim shop to completely validate what the first had said...i didn't just throw up my hands and say '**** it, it's good enough' after the first attempt...it was anything but that.

    as for the panel fit, i'll ask an honest question with regard to the picture Kurt posted with the credit card on the trunk...

    how does one address a bow in the trunk lid when the radius' of the corners line up as close as possible between the lid and the quarter ?

    these cars necessitate compromises, they are far from perfect.

    what is certain is that the doors closed as 400 doors should, absolutely...yes, a firmer close is necessitated due to the new gaskets, but they closed as they should...

    so i just don't understand and i just don't have an explanation for many of the other things Kurt is saying...and i'm not suggesting anything, i just don't have an explanation because so many things seem to have changed for the worse...i just don't know.

    the easiest thing in the world for me would have been to just bury my head in the sand and wait this out, but against all advice i needed to meet this head on, despite the pain...this just means too much to me.

    at this point though, i just don't know what to do about this...Kurt had two offers on the table and the first would have accomodated all of the required re and re for new paint at no cost to him and he knows that.

    and the second was a straight credit for what he paid for the body work and paint job...

    if that is completely unreasonable of me, then so be it...sorry.
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  18. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
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    Jan 23, 2006
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    Dave
    #93 dstacy, Sep 25, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012

    BAWAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Well done.
     
  19. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 F1 Rookie

    Oct 16, 2001
    4,995
    La mamma dei fessi
    Full Name:
    e sempre incinta
    No that was Big Red...
     
  20. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
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    Jan 23, 2006
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    Dave
    Fixed it
     
  21. willrace

    willrace Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 21, 2006
    32,908
    North Tay-has
    Full Name:
    Kurt
    I believed the $17500 because that's what I was told, along with the reason it was be sold - that the owner badly needed capital for his business. As noted in the first post of this thread, I've been there, it sucks, but to be on the other end was one of those exciting "Score" moments. Similarly, I spent most of yesterday at a horse facility being liquidated, where equipment and horses were being sold for pennies on the dollar to raise capital, though most was already snatched-up by people closer to the situation. $50K horses for $5K.....$300,000 heavy equipment for $25K.....and so on.
    $17,500 for a remotored 400GT with a straight (we haven't checked yet, bot hopefully so), rust free (you've seen the pictures of where the paint didn't cover the front edges of the doors), 5 speed, carbureted car as listed in my Post 1 "want list". It was the perfect base to start.
    If anything remotely close to $40K had been mentioned for this car as a starting point, my search would have continued.

    The $15,000 bids to strip this from at least three sets of primer/paint and at least two layers of filler (factory and Brett's, plus probably between the silver-to-red change) and another layer of clear, to metal reflects everyone's fear of what those cracks indicate underneath. This must have been evident prior to work beginning, as even the large pics Brett sent only showed the crack at the lower front corner of the passenger door. Brett was my "eyes and feel" for the condition of this car as a base, because of reasons already voiced here several times, and a complete lack of any dissatisfaction from anyone posting here until now, which just added another this morning.

    One also reasonably assumes that "freshly rebuilt motor" also includes tuning the thing, though in Brett's post, this is now revealed as not even done until after my purchase, and once here, ran so badly that it's sound was compared to shooting at a bunch of ducks. Once James got into tuning it, presumably just to change the jetting, he found that the timing was off side-to-side. Its duck-hunting staccato was while it was still running solely on the Canadian fuel, so that's how it had been driven in those break-in miles while in Canada, and couldn't even be attributed to elevation change, as noted in the Aug 27 Time to decide email already partially quoted in Post 6, but more added here:
    From: [email protected]
    To: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
    Subject: Time to decide.
    Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 18:34:32 +0000

    ....the ignition timing was off side-to-side, if not the balance of the carbs as well (which are really irrelevant, since it was known it would need to be retuned), but was how it was driven while still in Canada (your elev ~715', a difference of ~115', well-within the spread of any daily run around flat Texas).....
    The whole if this email in coming up soon, since it's been referenced and quoted several times already.

    As noted in the Sept 5 Decisions have to be made post 18:
    ...As the only person aware of what was being spent on your end, you were the only one in a position to control what was spent, and were asked constantly "if this was still within the $60K overall budget?" You were simply given an overall budget for the car....
    ....If you could have delivered what I was expecting for the price of a few dollars, a wave of a magic wand, and a sorcerer's spell, you'd have made a great profit, and I'd be happy....​

    The obviousness of the cracks, especially those under the paint (paint was applied to existing, exposed cracks) has grown as dust/dirt has settled into them. I've only spritzed an area being cleaned as it was wiped-off, since the tops of the C-panel vents are fully exposed to admitting water into the chassis, and no telling what else elsewhere on the car. Wiping into the worst cracks and chips generated the best results, seen in the more recent pics, though I guess I could use a Dremel to gouge out the dirt, but that's kinda worse, I think.

    The whole purpose of trusting a project like this to a knowledgeable expert with a good reputation is so that you don't end up with what's here.
     
  22. willrace

    willrace Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 21, 2006
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    Kurt
    Stated budget for the paint has, until Brett's first post, been $6500, independent of the windshield. Now it's $5K. The windshield was months after the paint, and drop-shipped from FerrParts to Norwood (arrived Feb 17, 2012) where it was installed. You are correct in noting that in one place, the painter was paid $6,500, now it's $5,000. Scrambling to cover is scrambling his numbers again.

    Brett was given a budget, as noted in my post immediately above.
     
  23. willrace

    willrace Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 21, 2006
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    Kurt
    From my Post #46:
     
  24. willrace

    willrace Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Kurt
    Just to reiterate:
     
  25. willrace

    willrace Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 21, 2006
    32,908
    North Tay-has
    Full Name:
    Kurt
    That's New Car in the Showroom, NOT "3 years sitting under bird-filled trees in a hot sun at Sectoin 8 apartments and the mall" Hyundai.
    Even lowly Hyundai has very good paint these days, not Mercedes, Bentley, or Rolls quality, but very good, and every decent paint shop in the country matches what's on Audis, Cadillacs, VWs, Toyotas, etc. every day, after working the metal and replacing major parts. I even refer to is as the "industry standard" in at least one email. Not hard to do at all, and not what was Acceptable, but Wanted. Drop into a Hyundai showroom and see, or just look at a newer model on the street sometime, just as I had suggested to Brett in those early discussions, in case he didn't know what I was talking about.
     

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