The Resurrection of #22579 | Page 3 | FerrariChat

The Resurrection of #22579

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by willrace, Sep 22, 2012.

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  1. Argento839

    Argento839 F1 Veteran

    Oct 21, 2005
    9,103
    How would the body work change? Any objective person can look at that car and see that it was not well done at all.
     
  2. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    Sam, I've got no dog in this fight but it's a pretty well established fact that how much money you spend on a car is completely irrelevant when determining value. If this weren't true there would be a lot more 400s, 308 GT4s and Mondials getting the full treatment.
     
  3. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    You missed his point. He was just saying the car should be worth more after a paint job not less.
     
  4. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    I got his point. He asked if it should be worth $41K. That would be a tall order regardless of how the paint job looked.

    I am NOT defending the work.
     
  5. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Tim,

    I understand this and hence I used the term "thereabouts" $41K... I agree that at times the value of a car is not necessarily the price of what work that has gone into it, but it actually now looks like it is worth less...way less than when the car started... and that is what is puzzling/confusing me.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  6. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    I'll admit I haven't scrutinized the pictures. Brett claims the paint budget was $5K. Let's wait for the next act of this play.
     
  7. It's Ross

    It's Ross Formula 3

    Jul 30, 2007
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    I have NOT read the entire thread.
    My comment is to the workmanship only as illustrated in the pictures. This looks to be quick and dirty collision shop or "used car" work from here. I have no idea of how much was spent on body and paint but I would be ashamed to have MY name on it at any price. Any good shop I've encountered flat refuses to do this sort of work.
    White paint is said to cover all sins, perhaps not. This is appalling.
    A 90k project merits close supervision.
    I suspect there is more to this story and sadly it will not have a good outcome.
     
  8. gerritv

    gerritv Formula 3

    Jun 18, 2001
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    $6500 is what GT paid to the body/paint guy. (Just above middle of post #2) $1500 of that is apparently for windshield.

    I can't see anywhere a mention of budget breakdown just for paint.

    Gerrit
     
  9. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    #59 samsaprunoff, Sep 24, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
    Good day Tim,

    Outside of the paint, there are also interior elements as well which I also do not understand (i.e. hand-stitching of the door handle which does not look professional, exposed seams incorrectly installed on the passenger side console, etc). The unfortunate part of these obvious esthetic issues is that it can also raise questions/concerns about the quality of other (possibly) unrelated items like mechanical repairs. Hopefully Brett will provide further details/analysis as to what transpired, as I said before... something is seriously amiss with all of this.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  10. thedoc

    thedoc Formula 3

    May 27, 2009
    2,159
     
  11. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
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    Feb 15, 2010
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    Well let's all be realistic.

    The car, even if restored to perfection would be VERY tough to sell for $50K. There is no real collector's market for these cars right now, they're just devalued Ferraris. I own two of them and love them, but it is what it is.

    The car as it started with old red paint and a worn but serviceable interior and a freshly rebuilt engine and trans (I do not know the extent of the rebuild so it's hard to say, but in the marketplace there's almost no difference to the next guy who buys it) is a $32-$35K car. People ask $60K all the time, but the cars that legitimately change hands in the market (Not sold by the repair shop- guys will often pay well above retail for the direct provenance when it comes to mechanically restored cars) are in the $30s. Right now there is a premium for carbs, but it's very small- about the same as with a carbed 308 over a QV. ($2k or thereabouts)

    We have here an owner who wanted a one-of-a-kind Ferrari and a very well qualified shop who offered to build it for him. On projects like these the numbers never make any sense- it's a labor of love.

    I think the biggest concern those of us who have been through the restoration process before is the idea of having a gatekeeper... the one guy you trust to be your eyes and ears and make damned well sure that all the leather and paint and exhaust guys do it right. None of us viewing pictures on the internet know what the car really looks like or how it drives, but it certainly looks like somebody should have stepped in and demanded far higher quality work. The interior work is just about the poorest I've seen, and the paint, well... we all know about the paint.

    As for a remedy- I see Brett's point. He has $5K into the paint- it sucks, he's offered that as a refund. Seems fair. From Kurt's perspective he has $90K into a $30K car and it will take another $20K to turn it into a $35K car. Nobody wins here. As they say in the antiques biz- "You can never pay too much...you can only sell too soon."

    The car does 100% need to be taken to the bare metal, I can't imagine there's any discussion about it at this point. The sins of the past need to be erased and the car needs to have a skilled hand restore all the lovely delicate Pininfarina shut lines and corners. The interior seems like a moderately easy fix, as long as the materials are of high quality I would think a good interior person could fix everything in a couple of days.

    Mechanically? I know Brett's reputation is excellent and he KNOWS these cars- mechanically. Regardless of where this project has veered off the tracks cosmetically, I would think there's a good, straight, sound car under there that will give somebody a lot of pleasure.

    My motto on all of these projects is simple- "Never total your receipts".
     
  12. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 F1 Rookie

    Oct 16, 2001
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    I don't know what both of you were thinking... It is impossible to paint a Ferrari for $5000. This proves it. Both of you should have known better...

    http://www.maaco.com/
     
  13. Fave

    Fave F1 Rookie

    Aug 12, 2010
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  14. red3555gtb

    red3555gtb Formula 3
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    Well said Jay.
     
  15. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula 3

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    Against my better judgment I'm going to throw in my $.02, then beat a hasty retreat. But this is the part of the story that jumped out at me, and I think it is at least one disputed fact in this transaction that is easily resolved: that it is not in the realm of possibility that anyone would sell a running 5-speed 400 with acceptable cosmetics and a rebuilt engine for $17,500. I'm a newb to the Ferrari world and as such my jaw dropped when I came across this thread last February in the classics forum entitled "Pricetag range V-12 rebuild?" -- http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354402. The first reply to that thread was "If it's a running engine I would figure around 40k. Not running and it's possible to add 20-30k." As I recall from "the eBay thread," someone remembered that the last time that #22579 had surfaced it had zero compression in one cylinder. So that would skew it toward the "add 20-30k" end of the spectrum. As I recall, at least one other poster to the "Pricetag range V-12 rebuild?" thread in the classic forum threw out a figure of as much as $100,000 for a V12 rebuild.

    To the mind of this newb, it is the astronomical price of an engine rebuild, as recited in that February "Pricetag range" thread, which haunts these 365/400/412s like an evil spirit, waiting to consign them to the crusher in a heartbeat. By contrast, $17,500 is chicken coop territory. (This I know; my 400i cost me $15,000, and I'm still cleaning out the feathers.) Again, it is just not in the realm of possibility that anyone would sell, for $17,500, a running, cosmetically acceptable, 5-speed 400, after having invested in a rebuilt engine.

    If Kurt says that he did understand that $17,500 was the full purchase price, I will not doubt him. But I will say that this price is so far out of whack with the market that he should have really nailed it down, in writing, and removed all doubt. In any event, that should be one moral to this story: when a collector car deal sounds too good to be true, be doubly sure that it is true before any money changes hands.
     
  16. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
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  17. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 F1 Rookie

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    I work hard for my money. I don't care who's working on my car...I want to meet him and see the work in progress. I want to see other projects in person, talk to others in person who have had work done, not rely on what people say on Fchat. A few hundred dollars on a flight would have stopped work before the price reached $90K.
     
  18. ferraripete

    ferraripete F1 World Champ

    a very sober post. i agree with you.
     
  19. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
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    Well then that's how you should handle any future restoration projects.

    Some of us prefer to use our time differently, and are happy to delegate the work and inspection to someone with more time, knowledge and experience. Reputation is everything in the Ferrari world.
     
  20. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    No specialist needs supervision in any profession to assure quality. If a customer feels better about checking in that's a different story and shouldn't effect quality if they are a true master at their craft.
     
  21. MS250

    MS250 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Please let me come and paint your Ferrari, for FREE .... I swear, I will gladly paint it for free , and then I will go a step further, I will give you $6,000 if your not happy.... Seems fair, to use your words, and I'm doing you a favor, I'm not even charging you. When can I expect your car, pm please !

    Please stop posting these long winded self proclaimed unrealistic posts as you are not doing this shop any favors at all when you say these things, and you are looking beyond inexperienced.

    I can't paint my house for 5k in 3 days worth of work with the cheapest paint from Home Depot ....the non sense I am reading would only make Enzo Ferrari roll over in his grave if he read this non sense.
     
  22. gerritv

    gerritv Formula 3

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    A bunch of things are springing out:

    1. Kurt never said 'spend $5k on a paint job'. That was GT's decision to farm out and spend that much/little
    2. "this e-mail will act as the Bill of Sale between yourself and Larry Warren for the 1978 Ferrari, serial # F101CL22579 the purchase price is $17, 500 USD and the current Ontario registration will pass directly from Larry Warren to you. This is a private sale and you will be subject to US taxes when the car is imported into the US." seems pretty clear to me that $17,500 is the purchase price. There are many reasons why this could be true even if it is not a normal price. E.g. somewhere Kurt was told/found out that Larry needed the $ quickly to get out the financing of the car. But so far in the saga no one has shown an email indicating that the purchase price was actually $41,500. It was only at the end that another $24k was needed.
    2a. It also seems puzzling that although it is supposedly a private sale, Larry is not involved in the transaction?
    2b. When did Larry hand over the ownership? With the Bill of Sale or only after he got the $24?
    2c. How much did Larry actually get in total? $41,500 or $24,000 wired direct?


    As for delegating the work, you do due diligence, you go with it. Delegating is difficult to learn but you must do it if you expect to get more done in your life than you can do alone. Kurt/Brett certainly communicated a lot, by email and by phone so hard a hands-off situation on either side.

    As for Jay's Maaco jab, a $5000 paint job does not look like that, regardless of the car itself. Either the body guy sucks, the paint shop sucks or it was ruined after it came back to GT (or some or all the above). It doesn't matter. If you were to spend $5000 on a paint job for your truck and you got this back, would you be pissed? I sure would be. And it isn't just $5k, it is also the other $ spent on disassembly/reassembly. Its not like we are talking about some orange peel (which would have been fine with Kurt), there are runs, burn through, trim gouging paint, trim flopping in the wind.

    Gerrit
    ex-11966
     
  23. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
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    Pardon me for not asking your permission prior to posting.

    I've been through a number of restorations on a variety of cars including several Ferraris, and own a 400i and 412. My opinions are just that, my opinions, and the last time I checked there was no stipulation to check with YOU before I posted them.

    Perhaps if you READ my post thoroughly you'd see the last thing I was doing was defending the actions of the shop involved here.
     
  24. MS250

    MS250 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    You are pardoned my son ;)
     
  25. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 F1 Rookie

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    The operative word is "Specialist". Reputation is everything but reputation where? On Fchat...
     

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