The Resurrection of #22579 | Page 11 | FerrariChat

The Resurrection of #22579

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by willrace, Sep 22, 2012.

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  1. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

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    #251 blkprlz, Oct 2, 2012
    Many like the carb cars for their sound, but that's got to be it. & there are good carb tuners out there but injected cars are always touted for their instant response & drivability...& it's the only type used in F1 to this day.

    +1!!

    This is why it is soooo important to document this sort of thing in places like here & others...to get it out there (like an Angie's List :eek: can't believe I'm saying this :eek: :eek:)

    Makes the 1 distributer set-up an improvement!

    I'm real curious about this too since it was mentioned earlier!!
     
  2. willrace

    willrace Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #252 willrace, Oct 2, 2012
    Nothing from an insurance company that I'm aware of.

    Early on, the options discussed were
    A) Shipping it back across the international border to Gran Turismo for another round of "Expertise" as already demonstrated, and just HOPE it came out better, after incurring several thousand $$$ in just transportation costs, to boot.
    B) Have the issues fixed down here, where I could keep an eye on its progress and quality, and paid for by Brett/Gran Turismo, making better use of both the funds for the do-overs and what would have been spent on transport costs.

    "B" was the more sensible route, and the car wouldn't be out of the country with the potential for an even bigger loss if it just never made it back to me. To this end, I got estimates for the work, and forwarded the numbers to Brett after culling the "Ferrari Tax" idiots.
    The interior was easy - Bobby could fit it in, and doesn't care if it's a Ferrari, a Falcon (jet), or a Harley. I still haven't posted the Big Problem 9-13 emails and their included pics yet, just for reference, and those were just what I'd discovered by first few days of April. Dave might have an aneurism considering that the rolling seam bugs him as much as it does, though some have already been posted in other parts of the thread.
    The body/paint was the difficult one, since my preferred shop only does the occasional vintage/restoration, and the Boxer is that one at the moment.
     
  3. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula 3

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    #253 180 Out, Oct 2, 2012
    Generally speaking, insurance covers casualty losses, not breaches of contract or breaches of the implied warranty of merchantability. The dividing line between what is an insured loss and what is not has to do with the mental state of the insured. Breach of contract is generally an intentional act, whereas a poorly installed tie rod end, which subsequently fails and causes a crash and a personal injury, is a negligent act: the installer has failed to exercise the level of care of a reasonable person. A business owner has personal control over his performance of a contractual duty, but human fallibility means that negligence can happen even though the insured tries to avoid it. An analogy might be to the fact that life insurance policies will not pay benefits in cases of suicide.

    An auto repair shop would typically carry a property loss policy, to cover damage to property due to flood, fire, etc., and a comprehensive general liability policy ("CGL"), to cover car crashes involving company vehicles, personal injuries to business invitees, and personal injuries and property losses caused by defective repair work, like a tie rod end coming loose. Also, injured employees would be covered by a workers compensation policy.

    Third party warranties can be obtained. Many used car dealers offer them. I don't know much about them, but I would expect such a warranty to use the as-delivered state of the product as the baseline. Therefore an engine coming apart after delivery might be covered, but a poorly tuned engine, as delivered, would not be. Imperfections in the fit of a turn signal lens would not be covered, but rust bubbles developing six months after delivery might be.

    At least one poster to this thread suggested that the law in Canada may be different than what I have just written, but I am a U.S. attorney, so I am writing about the generalities of American insurance coverages. If coverages for breach of contract or breach of the implied warranty are available in Canada, I would expect them to be very high priced, again due to the fact that the insured has personal control over the eventuality of a loss. Also, if Brett had such coverage, I would have expected him to have been on the phone to his broker back in April or May.
     
  4. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
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    #254 dstacy, Oct 2, 2012
    And please don't make me look at the stitching on that door handle/door panel again.
     
  5. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie
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    #255 intrepidcva11, Oct 2, 2012
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    It's been a slog through this very sad tale, that underlines once again two axioms: never buy a car to restore, except perhaps that dream of a barn find, a real, verified 1951 Ferrari 212, or similar beauty, that is unaccounted for. Otherwise it will ALWAYS be far too expensive and you will NEVER get reasonable value nor get your money out. Always buy a sound car or one that someone else has restored and will take the big hit on.

    I wondered particularly at this frightful price, since I am selling my 1987 412GT 5-speed, 34,000km, in splendid condition, several Ferrari Club of America National Concours Platinum Awards, one Cavallino Classic Platinum Best in show 2+2, and in mechanical condition such that I would have no hesitation getting in and driving it from New York to San Francisco.

    Here's a photo of the car on the Saratoga Automobile Museum's (I'm Vice-chairman of the Board) Road Rally from Saratoga Springs to Lake George a couple of years ago. Two cars behind me was the pale yellow 1967 275 NART Spyder that Denise McCluggage drove to a class win in the 1967 Sebring 12 Hours. It was she, driving her old car in this run! ;-)
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  6. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie
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    #256 intrepidcva11, Oct 2, 2012
    p.s. meant to add, price is $59,750. - good deal less than $90K - for a sound, beautiful car with a history and provenance.
     
  7. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 F1 Rookie

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    #257 Jay GT4, Oct 2, 2012
    +1
     
  8. simon klein

    simon klein Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #258 simon klein, Oct 2, 2012
    Jeeez,that'll make Kurt feel good...
     
  9. Rock

    Rock Formula 3

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    #259 Rock, Oct 2, 2012
     
  10. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
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    #260 full_garage, Oct 2, 2012
    I think from reading Kurt's posts that he was looking to create a special car... carbs, rare color (white), exactly the color interior he wanted and everything done to his spec. A vintage car not restored, but thoroughly rebuilt so you can take it out and drive it without fear of hurting it.

    Seth's car looks lovely, and he and I spoke at great length about the car a few years ago. At the time when speaking with a few other 400/412 lovers I remarked that his car might be worth $60K "To somebody", just not me. Still for sale so I guess we know how that worked out.

    412s are in the $30ks, period. (At this particular point in history) Decent auto low 30s, really good autos and decent 5 speeds mid 30s and the very very best 5 speeds high $30s. Auction prices over the past 5 years are quite definitive, and ebay prices a good 10-20% lower than that. That's just the way these cars are valued in the States right now, and I don't see it changing in the near future.
     
  11. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    #261 davehelms, Oct 3, 2012
    Surely not the right place to debate the topic but I am not so sure that thinking will be the standard much longer Jay.

    I see things changing where there are two distinctly different levels in each models market place. I could be completely washed up on this view point but that is now how I am viewing it. Paint, interior and wheels are the lowest criteria on the list as what makes a fine car is how it operates and its reliability. Once that is dealt with then the finishing touches on aesthetics makes a rounded out package.

    It is common to find One or the Other, but quite rare to find them both on the same car. On the rare occasion it is found, it elevates the car to an entirely different level from the remainder of the field. Defining what makes that car is a complicated and long winded task but, after all, its just nuts and bolts and can be done.

    I think that is why you are starting to see folks investing the money and the effort into cars where the market numbers dont justify it. A given model has been sought after for so long and with the market filled with marginal examples.... an exceptional example is made. At that point the only thing it has in common with the rest of the field are the badges, surely not the value.
     
  12. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
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    #262 full_garage, Oct 3, 2012
    Dave,

    Surely I respect your opinion but an owner's perception of an "Extraordinary" car often does not match the prospective buyer's perception.

    In the 400/412 world, as with Mondials and 308GT4s, prices are what they are. These are perceived as the least desirable Ferraris and therefore the majority of buyers are shopping for a "Bargain" Ferrari. As soon as they are faced with sizable repair bills they move the car. Given the poor resale market these cars almost always wind up in the hands of "Highline" car dealers. No shortage of $22,000 400is for sale over the past few years.

    As we have learned from this thread, paint, interior and overall cosmetic are ferociously expensive to get right. If your engine has an oil leak you can still drive it and enjoy it and show it off... pride of ownership. If your paint is cracked and faded and your leather is torn and tattered- well everyone can see that and you wind up making excuses for the car.

    In the world of Ferraris a "rebuilt" engine or a "Serviced" car has a definitive value. While a Dave Helms rebuilt engine should have a price premium over a "Tonys Sportscars" rebuilt engine, in reality it is a very small premium. Great paint is visible and you don't need specialized instruments to see it.

    That said, since most cars are sold over the internet today, as long as the car isn't flat and dull it sells.

    Where are prices going?? Who knows. My recently rebuilt 308GT4 should be worth around $35K given market pricing, yet a few people have offered me north of $40K, because they want a low mileage, restored vehicle. (Car is not for sale) My 18,000 mile auto 412 is probably the finest one in the country, with a great color scheme and 16" wheels- yet I would imagine I'd struggle to get $35K for it if I were to sell it.

    My 5 speed 400i has been the beneficiary of a near complete restoration, half from the previous owner and the rest under my care... great paint, perfect leather, new TRXs, rebuilt suspension and rebuilt engine... and I think it's still worth low $30s, cause that's the way it is.

    I hope I'm eating these words in 5-10 years.
     
  13. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    #263 davehelms, Oct 3, 2012
    A standard will be made and set, this market now demands it as we find ourselves with such vastly differing opinions of what is "Nice" these days. A used car salesman selling a car V. a mechanic faced with making a new owner happy and keeping a car in top working order............ their opinions have little in common. I have been working on a points system, based on the same criteria used in showing cars, but even that is subjective and needs standards.

    I do believe you will be gratefully eating your words in a very short time. A restored GT4, done right and to a high standard, WILL fetch in excess of 40K right now. There are folks out there that have wanted for one for a lifetime, respect quality and would pay the price for it.

    You must understand, these are not the folks that billboard themselves and make a lot of noise... hence you dont hear about it..... but I do in their requests. No different than with the money pit 330 we got, NO ONE wants a quad 330... OR is that really the case?! Based on the conversations I have had from those watching/waiting until its done.... I suggest that is not the case. I, like you, have no intension of restoring it to sell, I just want the finest example of a given model I can have....... that and I am also being forced into it by a Smurf.
     
  14. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
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    #264 full_garage, Oct 3, 2012
     
  15. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    #265 davehelms, Oct 3, 2012
    Key Words........... and words are cheap these days.

    I refuse to enter into this threads debate as it is not my place to do so. We can all judge by photo's and come to our own conclutions. My only point being I understand the OP's motives and share them myself.
     
  16. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
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    #266 full_garage, Oct 3, 2012
    Dave

    Yeah the operative word there is "Seemingly".

    Threads like this are the only way we laymen can figure out the difference between good work and bad. We need to see pictures and hear stories and talk prices. The "Ferrari Community" in most locales is a couple of guys- there's no "conventional wisdom" to be had except for the forums these days.

    Looking forward to Kurt posting some interior and mechanical images so we can see if the work done there is better than the paint work.
     
  17. willrace

    willrace Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #267 willrace, Oct 3, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
    That is exactly correct - From the beginning, I knew, and acknowledged at the beginning of this thread, that I'd be upside-down in this car. I was comparing it financially to one of the computerized appliances I could order down at the local BMW/Merc/Audi/etc. dealer.
    This was to be a $60K car with more character and soul than one of those, thus my other considerations at the time. The $17,500 basis made the envelope of what could be done, upgrades and all, even more feasible, with a few further plans once it was here.
    Both the result sitting in the garage, and the extra $24K surprise put a big "hold" on that.
    Very little more above the $17,500 base would have necessitated starting with a car with much better paint/body, or much better non-black or tan interior, that would be acceptable for the near future. At about $20K, the equation changes decidedly towards "What's out there, and already close to what I want?".

    I'm old enough to remember driving carbureted cars long distances without a worry, and still see no reason they can't still be, especially with upgrades learned and created over several decades. I had this car built for myself, knowing all of the above, with the expectation that a well-chosen shop would produce a worry-free car of my specification. Given that the same shop is responsible for what's already been presented as "good work" and "good value", and similar results inside, with much of what was specified just plain tossed out the window, I fear that the brake-line treatment is just the tip of the iceberg on the mechanical. Add to that some of the emails and PMs I've received concerning others' mechanical woes, and #22579 won't be going on any long trips soon, until it's been checked-over thoroughly at Norwood, the multi-adaptered brake-lines replaced, the wiring sorted, and I've put enough miles on her to feel confident that I won't need that new AAA tow membership.

    At the risk of making Dave ill again, I'll post those pics. The question is: Do you want them in the Big Problem email format as Brett received them, or just blowing through them with context and with current commentary?

    Barring some reason to break open the engine/drivetrain or suspension/brakes (jeez, I hope not!!), mechanical likely will be limited to those brake lines and their adapters, once the correct ones are here. On the body side of the mechanical, we might find out what the clanging is in the RF fender when you shut the passenger door, or why the headlights are simply held in place by gravity (aren't they supposed to rise against a stop?).

    The things that an Expert does that we mere mortals don't even know about.......
     
  18. willrace

    willrace Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #268 willrace, Oct 6, 2012
    Fulfilling some requests and "Are you going to post more pics?" questions, it's time for another installment of "Why You Hire An Expert". Since just C&Ping the B P series is quick and easy, I'll continue in that format, with some added commentary/pics reflecting findings from the last few months, where things were missed.

    Dave, You may want to look away now. :D

    For Context, I'll remind everyone of the direction and details of the interior from waaaaayyyy back in early April of 2011, and Post #6:
    From: [email protected]
    To: [email protected]; [email protected]
    Subject: Paint Formula
    Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 17:16:58 +0000

    ....... to confirm match from the formula.

    How soon will you be ready for leather for the interior? Aeristo is holding hides for me, but just called me to tell me that the really black-black ones I liked so much aren't colorfast, or stain-resistant, or........... So, it's back to the Raven.
    Base upon our conversation yesterday, I think we have pretty good handle on the color details.
    A couple of quick decisions after sleeping on them:

    Keep the headrests all grey
    Black piping, but only where there is currently piping.....and some of that may go to a different stitching that doesn't need piping.
    Keep the script on the trunklid
    Mount for the trunk and bonnet(?) pulls (beside driver's seat) in black
    Pass side overhead grab handle in black
    Back of bottom seat cushions (seen below the seat back when in rear seats, or when seat back is tilted forward for access to rear seats) in black

    Get a firm number on the number of each hide color required, plus the amount of Ultrasuede needed for the upper dash, the rear package shelf, and the next-to-glass base surrounds for each of those.

    I should be sending the color card to match today, along with your leather sample sets.​


    The only details left out of this specific exchange were regarding treatment of the seatback "horseshoe" and its insert, which were to be done in the new black leather, and the black Ultrasuede to match the already established inserts in the doors and beside the rear seats (March 23 email), respectively, and A-pillars, per a subsequent phone conversation, which unfortunately can't be copied here.​
    Other than the "perfect headliner" and B&C pillars, carpet, and steering wheel, everything upholstered was to be covered in new materials, with specific use of the Ultrasuede for accents, and anti-glare and anti-shrinkage.
    The Douglass hides, 2 Black Angus and 4 Coldstream Grey to match what the Boxer is getting, and several yards of black Ultrasuede would be gorgeous in there. Let's see what happened to it all:
    From: [email protected]
    To: [email protected]; [email protected]
    Subject: B P 10
    Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 02:51:35 +0000

    Stepping inside......
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    - (0381) Dr. Frankenstein's sutures?

    - (0382) Canadian mice, smuggled inside the door upholstery! ! The pic doesn't do the lumpiness justice.
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    - (0427) Another 1st round elimination in Upholstery Idol's stitching competition.
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    - (0392) There might be another mouse in that cave.
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    - (0443) Told you that the pencil was coming. No mouse, though.


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    - (0444) I stuck it in level; it's loose enough that it fell to that point before I could take the pic.

    I'm trying to retain a sense of humor about this......I've done better.​
    That last pic took several tries, since the pencil kept falling out. I eventually decided to just take the next one where it stayed in.
     
  19. willrace

    willrace Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #269 willrace, Oct 6, 2012
    After realizing that there was no odor or staining from dead Canadian mice, speculation is that the lumps are probably where the batting had an overlap joint. There's enough puffiness that proper padding should leave enough leather to reuse the existing material, hopefully enough to correct the raw edges of the split-n-fold corners, too.
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    The handle stitching has already been featured here a couple of times, but what you can't tell very easily from the pics, and without feeling them, is that there is virtually no padding (fiber-fill batting?) to fill-out the shape. What you feel is the leather-covered hard structure, kinda like that metal insert on a mid-70s Camaro interior door handle languishing in the parts yard since 1986, if you wrapped a shop rag around it so it wouldn't cut you.
    These pieces probably will be remade from either the console sides or the rear package shelf.

    The console and upper dash are similar in the ability to feel the structure underneath clearly, but have padding comparable in feel to one of those fluffy down jackets from the 70s/80s, with no firmness until you hit the hard structure itself. It answers the unasked question "What if my interior had an allergic reaction to a bee sting?"
     
  20. willrace

    willrace Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #270 willrace, Oct 6, 2012
    Continuing......Someone check on Dave to make sure he's OK......
    From: [email protected]
    To: [email protected]; [email protected]
    Subject: B P 11
    Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 02:54:37 +0000

    Enter here.....
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    - (0455) & (0452) If not for the driver's side, I'd have thought that the boys in Marenello had a thing for cutlery in doorways. This really went unnoticed? (now that I say that......)
    And then, there's the "Oops, I cut the new door seal inches short filler piece......It's not like this guy is spending a butt-load to make this car right...."
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    - (0451) There's that pencil again. It fits in the most unusual places. At least the gap is closing as it gets to the rear ! !

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    - (0454) It IS leaning on the speaker grill.

    I'm not sure how this was mounted to create such a gap, but thankfully, the edge it presents for the entire length isn't sharp.​
    If that pencil wasn't leaning on the grill, it would have fallen out. It's in to the edge of the paint (the outside of the pencil), but isn't inserted enough (depth too shallow), or tight enough, to hold it in place.
    At least the driver's side was correctly installed.
     
  21. willrace

    willrace Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #271 willrace, Oct 6, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2012
    Here comes that pic again, in the context of its original appearance in the emails....
    From: [email protected]
    To: [email protected]; [email protected]
    Subject: B P 12
    Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 03:04:30 +0000

    Deeper inside.......

    - (0354) Center console pic you've seen in BP1 or BP2. Follow the stitching up to the........instruments?
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    - (0388) & (0424) Stitching staying roughly where it should, but after the wood, nothing else was recovered.
    Reupholstering the Console - Refer back to Door Seals, Painting examples which used tire allusion.

    - (0389) & (0390) See above
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    ​

    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    The other side of that console, at the instruments. I guess the scuff is from trying to make it stretch/tuck into the and make that raw edge disappear?
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    For a different, but better perspective on this, look back in Post #214 for the raw edge money-shot, next to the not-done-at-all lower dash. You can even get a feel for how fluffy the console side is, as I mentioned a couple of posts ago.
    Multifunction shot:
    - New Leather, meet Old Leather coming unwrapped, at the gateway to more Old Leather Land
    - Another Canadian Mouse? Nah.....filling goes to near-nothin' at the back edge of the ash tray. Ran out, maybe?
    At least I got a new, fat slot to hold tollway change, stacks of business cards from towing companies, and my new AAA card. :p
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    Oddly, all of the black leather was used up, and there was a bunch of the black Ultrasuede left over.......Where, O Where, Should My Ultrasuede Have Gone? We'll see in the next episode.........

    "Done by an Expert.....Done by an Expert....."
     
  22. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
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    #272 dstacy, Oct 9, 2012
    My eyes, my eyes! I thought we got along Kurt. Jeesh man stop it :)

    You see the deal we were going to meet at on the 20th is a "no go"?
    I'm going to be at the ranch that weekend anyway. You want to drive over to Dallas and meet me for dinner at my favorite steakhouse there? Its about 3 blocks from where Kenedy was shot.
     
  23. willrace

    willrace Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #273 willrace, Oct 10, 2012
    Sorry, man........I tried to warn you, since there are those who still like horror flicks with lots of gore (I had requests!!). I have a new favorite comment from yesterday's emails: "....interior by Helen Keller".
    To her credit, her sense of touch would have told her many things, though - She would have certainly made her way to one of the other 400s in the shop on a regular basis to feel how to do things right, and the difference between smooth new leather, dry old leather, and especially the Ultrasuede. :p

    Since the shindig has been postponed, good steak in Big D sounds like a great idea. Count me in ! ! ! Which one is it?
     
  24. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 F1 Rookie

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    #274 Jay GT4, Oct 10, 2012
    Wow, I'm still in shock...
     
  25. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

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    #275 blkprlz, Oct 10, 2012
    I'm curious too, in the event I take the southern route from our 11,000 ft. Rockies home to Tampa.
     
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