The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I need a grid or excel spread sheet

 

Maybe it is but can you tell me that we can know diddly squat without knowing either the origins of the cars or what happened while in Pipers possession? I seem to recall you yourself saying that Piper privately claimed the chassis was built by someone other than Vaccari and you further asked about Manicardi e Mesuri in a context that suggested you were leaning towards them as being the chassis builder because #0900 was apparently built by them. Now are you saying that Max Wakefields Chassis contains parts from #0846? Because that would be a very interesting claim and a little LOL.

Seriously though Piper could pretty much remove any chance of a claim by pulling the invoice's for the three chassis and then we would all be crystal clear. Where Piper got the chassis built for DP0003/0846 is surely the major point in the whole sorry saga and other claims are disingenuous at best.

 

Asked if Vaccari made DP0003 David nodded in the negative according to a good friend of his. The 1987 auction description for his Ferrari sanctioned 0900 states Manicardi e Mesuri made that one. I don't know who these people are. I always thought it was Vaccari and Bosi were the original makers of these chassis. The auction description doesn't say who made DP0003. David told me that it wasn't the people that made the original Ferrari chassis but by a competent chassis maker in Modena. I am not saying and do not think in the slightest that 0900a could be 0846 but by your reasoning it could be argued that it could be just as much as DP0003. Actually, it is more like the real 0846 at Daytona 1967 than Mr Glickenhaus's DP0003. Mr Glickenhaus may have bought bought the wrong one lol!!!

 

Like I said no one has to do anything. But without it, many will always be skeptical.

And this is without Ferrari making a statement after having the chassis to view. With their blessing the doubters will have a tough time trying to argue that the chassis is 0003 when they don't know anything about the history of the chassis they are talking about.

Don't ya find that funny. A gang of people trying to prove that this chassis is 0003 yet they don't know really any of its history.

They are not just saying this is not 0846. They are saying it is 0003. Yet they actually know nothing about 0003. Amazing.


If Ferrari has spent months picking over 0003/0846 and they due indeed conclude that 0003/0846 is 0846, how Piper built it will be an important argument for the skeptical that want to challenge the word of Ferrari, who they once said had the final say on the car. But to each their own. We'll see what comes of this rumored inspection.

The sad thing about your comment is this. This is run as a competition for who can win the "lawsuit" and beat the other side. The shame is it should be a group of people, enthusiastic to find out as much about the history of a possible Ferrari artifact.

I agree, Miura did a good job of putting together his theory and an excellent job finding pics and putting many together.

I wish he would arrange them a bit different, Even if he had to do multiple posts, it would be much easier to keep track, if the argument was linked to the picture he was talking about vs Massive amounts of text and then you have to fish your way through 5 pictures.

Hopefully we will be able to get some good pics of all the Piper built chassis and see how similar these three girls are.

For me Piper selling this as 0003 means nothing. I don't really feel Piper has been too forthright in this manner. Him keeping quiet on the matter makes me even more skeptical. After all what was that chassis Marcel saw back in the day?

Anyways...

For me is not a matter of you have to compile the Piper years to win in court. This is a matter of people will be skeptical that this can not be the car in the Karl picture. Mostly if Ferrari says it is.

Even if it isn't and the car is unquestionably 0003, even then it would be nice to know the story of the three chassis and how they came about and were used just as a matter of historical preservation.

Honestly, if you really care to know about the car Vs. the Falcon Crest of his thread, you would be interested in learning how the car was built and used by the guy you believe birthed it.

Sad thing is people are more worried about winning than learning.

 

My only reasoning has been to say and I will keep this as simple as possible, that David Piper is the ONLY person that knows the detail of the build and the tenure of his ownership. Since you would seem to have some relationship to him, I implore of you to get Pipes to make a public statement with the simple answer of who did build the three chassis, just to be clear. That will be a much simpler answer to the core question than all the pointless discussions.

 

Unfortunately, I don't have some relationship to David Piper. I am a fan and I'd love to meet him. I have only spoken to him on the telephone a few times and I doubt very much if asked that he will even know who I am. As you think it so important that he make a public statement then I urge you or one of you who thinks like you to get in touch with him for this so sought after statement.

 

Well said.

 

David Pipers wife was planning on publishing a book about her husbands life a few years ago, but I believe that it's been on hold ever since, I understand the title was "Ferraris at the bottom of my garden" or similar.

One day hopefully she will release it, I don't know if they have children but instead maybe the transcript will fall into their possession or other relatives in time and we all get to read the fascinating story of his exploits.

She seems to be knowledgeable of his racing life so it could clear up a lot of the mystery.

Things will also unfold when David Pipers vast collection of cars and components comes to market one day. I bet Talacrest and many others would love to take ownership of that lot.

Maybe within that stockpile is the dusty chassis Marcel saw in Switzerland all those years ago! ;-)

 

One of the various Piper unknowns that IMO will need an explanation before many would believe that this is 0003.

How do you explain the chassis that Marcel saw years ago and has somehow disappeared?

 

Deflection, and argument by absurdity. Why not ask Piper that simple question? Who made the chassis? Think of it, when he responds, and if it is as you say, a replica, then that is your holy grail, and victory over Mr G. Finally. Yet, with that prize in sight, you won't reach out to him. Yet, you badgered MF? I say the ball is in your and Pipers court, because he can finally put this to rest. He may even have a receipt for the replicas you say they all are. Think of it, hard proof.

Perry

 

Interesting theory. Could it involve taxes as well? More importantly the relationship each man has with Ferrari.

Perry

 

Do you actually read the thread? I have asked DP who made the chassis. He says he doesn't remember. He's emphatic it's a replica and not 0846. He's also told me he didn't want to speak about it any more so the door is closed as far as I am concerned. You and the other Glickophants get in touch with him.

 

Piper has said what it is. He's not being secretive. It's a P4 replica he modified to accept a P3 type engine. We all know the plans he has are for a P4, not P3, so he used them to correctly modify the mountings to accept a P3 type engine which would have meant removing the P4 mountings if it was built with them. New chassis may not have the engine mountings installed and the mounting tubes on the side only added when the engine is being fitted in situ with it bolted to the bulkhead only.The first engine installed in this chassis is said to be a 412P. I've explained the differences between P3 and P4 in previous posts. Jim has been very disrespectful about Piper not knowing the differences between a P3 and a P4. It's obviously Jim who doesn't know the differences by his comments on the photograph David gave to Nathan. After the chassis was modified to accept a P3 engine and the car used for years with either a 412P or 312 F1 24 valve engine, which are similar to P3 with protruding lugs, bolt on adaptors have been added and the right hand rear mount has been drilled and welded to less than ideally fit the 312 F1 36 valve engine Jim bought the car with. That's it. Simple. All this 0846 thing is absolute rubbish.

 

Yes, David and Liz do have children and grandchildren. Liz has been going to write that book for years though I don't know if she has even started yet.

 

Guess that's what we're waiting to hear ...?

 

What is your explanation for the chassis Massini saw?

What if Ferrari says it is? What then?

My guess is you'll start digging through Piper.

 

Until I see it as far as I am concerned Ferrari has said nothing. Why can't he post the July, 2016 written confirmation by Ferrari that he owns P4 Chassis 0846 now????

For Jim to say he will publish documents in "several months" time might as well be never.

 

No idea. Perhaps he saw 0836 which Piper is said to have sold to Switzerland and bought it back later.

 

Maybe he is being thorough and not immediately regurgitating "new" information without looking at the already-existing data and placing it in the proper spot.(?)

We still have zero idea what has happened and with whom at Ferrari in the past few months.

If they discover and agree that it is not 0846, he is still going to drive home in something wonderful. I have a feeling any answer will be just that and life will go on.

Starting to think Jim and his friends might have pantsed you in 3rd grade or something and this has been your lifelong quest for revenge.

 

Thing is Jim has stated that Ing. Forghieri thoroughly examined his chassis before writing the February and March documents to him which was not the case. He is now saying Ferrari, which could mean anyone, has "investigated" 0846 between May and July. Investigated means a thorough examination. To me this thorough examination by Ferrari would mean it being carried out at the factory between May and July but we all know his car has been at the Targa Florio, the Museum of Turin for a number of weeks, then to the Nurburgring, and then back to the Museum of Turin during this period.

Yes, it is a wonderful car. I'd definitely install the correct engine mountings though.

 

A timeline of the dates would help to clear this up.

Does anyone have any idea on the dates of the various events in question?

0836 sold to and returned to Switzerland.

Massini Seeing the chassis in person.

Thanks.

 

Let me make this crystal clear for you.

I am all for learning. Thats all I have been doing. I am a history nut. I am a car nut. This particular car has fascinated me for years.

I003/0846 is an awesome car puzzle.

your last sentence is offensive if it is directed at me. I do feel that there are some who just want it to be 003 and do zero research etc... and I would say that applies to them. I don't even think your comment should include muirasv he has done his research and has brought very good points and evidence. He isn't just bashing he is providing historical documentation

Let me make this clear as well... I have NO DOG in this fight. I don't care if it is or isn't 0846.

All I care about is that the result is correct. I care about history, the history of ferrari, and the potentional next owner/possible real owner of 0846 if the chassis exists.

I have experienced people replicating a long lost car, and then calling it real. It destroys the reputation of the car that isn't long lost... but just sitting quietly in someones garage. While not the same scenerio as this... I am just telling you that accuracy is massively important to me. Facts and physical evidence are important to me.

People are the flaws in these situations. People lie. People forget. People remember things one way and then another (which is to be expected on a 50 year old car). People get bought or swayed. Life experiences get in the way of how they remember things changing the perspective of the memory. What doesn't lie are the pictures. The physical evidence. It will stay the same for eternity.

The point of what chassis did Marcel see? I don't see the smoking gun in that. He is an awesome guy and historian and everything and I would never mean to disrespect him in any way... I just don't see how this can be used as proof of 0846 remains being used. Its a clue but zero proof. If I am missing something here (admittedly I would like to learn more about this as you keep bringing it up and perhaps I am missing something)

Sure... Id love to know more about the 3 cars piper built. Feel free to educate us. I am sure Fchat would love to see it.


I have a genuine question for you and I am not trying to be snarky about this...

What is your take/opinion on why piper won't confirm the car as 0846 or how he built it.

 

See, that last comment is uncalled for. That is what takes the edge away from your argument, and stiffens the resistance. Because, there is no definitive answer one way or the other. Mr G has said, he cares not what it is, he is enjoying it. So, unless Piper says where they were made, it will never be known.

Perry