The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Furthermore with regards the nonsense about wheelbase changing, you can move the engine/gearbox forward, backward, up or down, but unless the fixed point where the arrow is shown actually moves then the wheelbase stays the same regardless.

Shims are used simply to get each of the 4 corners aligned correctly so that the chassis ends up realtively straight, not to increase or decrease wheelbase.

Agree, great pics hope you don't mind the addition
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I don't think there is any room whatsoever to move a P4 engine forward anyway with everything in between the bulkhead and the engine. In fact they had to move at least one tube from P3 to P4 to allow space for the water outlet on the P4 engine. Pics are of restoration and reconfiguration to P4 of 0858 by Talacrest Piper.
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Great pics. Thanks.

Good job on putting all the pics together too Miura. Nice to see some discussion about the actual construction of the chassis.

I would like to see more on the differences/similarities with the other Piper frames if anyone has decent pics of those.

 

Piper exactly confirmed in writing what he sold and the buyer accepted getting a replica with his payment. Piper has nothing to prove or 'manly' explain. And KL's period pictures disproved all claims and left no room to continue the speculation that the car has remnants of the eliminated number 0846. Without relevant and additional proofs, the rest is just dreaming, bubbling and a waste of time. Is this really so hard to understand?

 

+1
Nathan

 

Yes, it is absolute nonsense. The wheelbase of both P3 and P4 was the same at 2400 mm, not 2412 mm that Mr Glickenhaus states for the P3. He has misquoted the Christian Huet Technical Data Sheet which may be due to a misunderstanding on his part but the result is the same, a misquotation.

 

Yet the DP0003 chassis appears to be different than 0900 and the other replica chassis that Piper had constructed - why? How does the Massini sighting in Switzerland of 0846 items related to a chassis and documentation tie in to the construction of the single authorized and two unauthorized replica chassis that Piper ordered? Given the Piper story that all three chassis were built as P4 replicas, why does DP0003 differ from the other two for the engine mounting arrangements and in other details?

It's all well and good to show photo proof that DP0003's engine mounting framework doesn't match 0846 in period or any known genuine P4 chassis, but if it was built as a P4 replica it was supposed to match and doesn't. Whether a salvaged 0846 or replica chassis, it's apparent that the engine mounting framework has been heavily cut up and modified - so the photo proof from Steve that the engine mounting framework doesn't match 0846 or the other replicas is not remotely conclusive as to whether DP0003 was built ground up or from a salvage 0846 frame. Why was it hacked up while owned by Piper, and by who?

The relevant and additional proofs can only be provided by Piper, since the physical evidence of the hacked up DP0003 chassis doesn't match Piper's story. While Steve's efforts seem to have disproved the assumptions put forward by JG about why his chassis is different, they still don't answer anything about the provenance of DP0003/0846 - whether it was built by the same builder as 0900 and twin, built by a separate chassis builder, or built up from the salvaged remains of 0846. Piper has those answers.

Why don't the Piper friends ask the man himself to clarify those outstanding questions, instead of assuming as gospel his tale as told to JG? The physical evidence of the chassis as documented by Steve is enough to establish that there are discrepancies in DP's story that need elaboration and clarification from Piper.

If you're looking for more truth, you don't need to sling insults at JG or others who don't believe the Piper version while waiting for the Ferrari confirmation documents - you could always pursue Piper for more information.

 

Compare the first two pictures, which are blow ups of Macca's picture of one of the other Piper P4 replicas, 0900a the ex Max Wakefield chassis, with those of the third and fourth pictures which are of Mr Glickenhaus's chassis DP0003 and you will see that the bulkhead tubes arrowed are the same. You will also see that they are both different to the genuine Ferrari P4 chassis 0858 in the fifth picture, and of course different to that of the real 0846 in the sixth picture.
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I too am fascintated!

Although I would point out that there are more, and likely more less informed people, that are just as head strong that it is 0846. I think more people are wishing for a happy ending. I think there are several people who have sunk there teeth into the topic and have brought up what they found. These are the ones that you are categorizing as stuck on the opinion that this is not 0846.

I may not have written that well... Let me try again.

From what I have read, the ones that could be categorized as "deniers" are the ones that have done there own personal research. They have knowledge of the subject and have invested time and energy into it. There are a handful of these.

I personally believe that there are more people that agree or go along with the car being 0846. And of those many if not most havent really done any research. They just want it to be so. Or they look at Jims stuff/collection, he speaks with authority and believe he is credible etc... (this is not a slam on whether or not Jim G is credible or not) and they just go with the "yes" it is 0846

 

Nonsense, as usual.

http://auto.ferrari.com/en_US/sports-cars-models/past-models/330-p4/


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Im lost as to your point. Maybe Im just subpar on this whole thing... but your Svs argument is the car is 2400mm and you just posted confiming what he said at 2400mm

If the point of your post/argument was that he never said/misquoted it at 2412mm didn't you cite the wrong reference? I believe that was his point.

Maybe you are dealing in sarcasim and I missed it or something.

This is not an attack by anymeans I am just trying to understand your post and keep up

 

The nonsense is from Wax, AS ALWAYS. I've actually brought this up myself in the thread some time back. The Ferrari website says the P4 chassis was slightly shorter which does not mean the wheelbase or even the whole length of the car including the bodywork which goes over the chassis. The whole length of the P4 including bodywork is stated as being longer at 4185mm with the P3 being shorter at 4170mm. The wheelbase is a section of the chassis, not the whole. The same sections of the Ferrari website quote wheelbase for P3 and P4 at 2400 mm. Pics are from same link as Wax posted. First pic = P4. Second pic = P3.
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Which Technical Data Sheet quotes the P3 wheelbase as 2412mm?

 

No he doesn't.

And when he hides from giving a proper explanation it definitely does not give many of us faith that he built it at all or make us believe it is 0003.

So to each their own

 

But wouldn't the signed bill of sale (not sure if this exists haven't seen it but others reference it) be Pipers certification of what he sold. He sold 003 as a continuation or replica or whatever it would be called. Wouldn't that constitute his certification.

Ferrari will weigh in and that will be their certification (yet to be determined)

One car with either matching documents of 003. Or mismatching documents of 003 and 0846

 

I'm not saying Piper knew or didn't know it was 0846 if indeed it was. I am saying Piper should know how it was built. And how it was modified, If he can't explain that, I have no reason to believe it was built as 0003 from scratch.

Does it match the other Piper chassis? I bet not. Why not?

No one has to prove it is 0003. Nor does anyone have to prove it is 0846. But until someone definitively proves it one way or the other, it really isn't either.

My guess is the Piper chassis differ from the frame formerly know as 0003. So until someone can prove it was built from scratch by Piper, many of us will not believe it is without a doubt 0003 any more than Miura, Piloti, Paul 500, LGS, etc will believe it is 0846 till it's creator is verifiably proven to have built it from scratch.

So to each their own, no one has to do anything, no one has to know the truth either.

 

You have, again, completely missed the point. It is DP0003 until proven otherwise. It IS DP0003, any hope/prayer/conjecture this is might be anything else is the unproven claim.

It would be convenient if David Piper did weigh in but he represented this as DP0003, sold it as DP0003 and it was purchased by the current owner as DP0003.

 

Indeed, that was Glickenhaus's story when he started this thread w-a-y back in the day. (Amazing how this thread has stayed relatively on track. This must be an Internet record.)

 

Piper sold and the buyer officially imported and taxed a replica with #DP0003. After, Piper had nothing to explain just the buyer, who now claims the car was built with remnants of the eliminated number 0846, what is disproved i.a. from KL's period pictures. What can Ferrari say to that situation and in addition to what they already said?

 

A little analogy for the man who likes to post vague youtube clips of nothing to do with the debate, and continually refusing to answer some very basic directly related questions posed to him.

Most cars are made from recycled steel, if I simply decided to claim one day that my everyday Mazda is made from metal that originally came from the Titanic does that now make my car the Titanic? and not a Mazda 6 that Mazda sold to me, funnily enough as a Mazda 6?

If Mazda then don't reply or don't want to get involved regarding my questions asking them where the metal came from in my car, does that then automatically make my car the Titanic by default?

Of course not!!!!! its still the Mazda 6 I purchased, unless I can prove without a shadow of a doubt it's anything else.

Then even if I can prove 100% that the metal was grasped on the deck of the Titanic by the guy played by Leonardo De Caprio in the film, is my car then at last finally declared to be the Titanic.

No its still the Mazda 6 I knowingly purchased from Mazda, as a Mazda 6, but with bits of metal from the Titanic in it.

 

This might be a very interesting question in case of any certification ... especially what maker, what date of fabrication, the mix of components and 'matching numbers' ...

 

Okay, Piper had DP0003 built but doesn't need to explain what or how or anything about it. That just doesn't sit very well with me because for that same reasoning nobody needs explain anything. Yes, it is for Jim to PROVE it is #0846 BUT for the same reasons that the story of who shot JFK is still with us because there is much that is hidden, we require more explanation of exactly how #DP0003 came into being and what happened to it in its nearly three decades within his ownership to put a full stop to the story. Jim can explain every part of the story or not and whatever evidence he brings will be judged on its merits BUT without that 30 year period with Piper being discussed in detail we will never get close to answering what really happened. DP only needs to publicly state I got all three frames from Brandoli or whoever and its game over for Jim and the fact that he doesn't do this gives credence to alternative theories.

 

Piper hasn't said who made P4 replica 0900a, the ex Max Wakefield chassis either. Are you asking yourself if this is 0846 too?

 

I mean this in the kindest kindest way possible...

Your logic is flawed. The burden of proof and chain of evidence is just... uhh... hmm... inacurate. I am trying to find another word for... wrong.

I don't mean this to come off as combative.

Since Piper wont discuss what what DP003 was made from or how it was made. We must/should use his sworn statement/signature/bill of sale what it was represented as during the sale and all sales contracts... which is DP003 which is a replica/continuation. That is how Jim aquired the car. He was offered a replica by Piper and he bought and paid for one. That was the starting point.

Piper is not saying how he built the car.

Jim is suggesting/proposing that it was built from scraps (large or small) of 0846 based on chassis configuration and evidence of crash marks etc... and has done a considerable amount of investigating on his own and with people who were familiar with the car.

Muira SV has done a good job of providing pictures and evidence refuting Jims claim/theory that the chassis is 0846 reincarnate based on Jims own pictures of his car and pictures of 0846 in period. The two rear sections of the chassis simply do not match according to the photos provided.

If Jim or anyone else can't get piper to say how the car was built. Then... we have to use what has both mens signatures and agreement which was the sale of DP003 as a starting point.

 

Bring me some popcorn and a milkshake please!
I am whatching a movie: The NeverEnding Story