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The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. technom3

    technom3 F1 Veteran
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    I agree up until the very last sentance.

    While it should be cut and dry. If Ferrari is blatantly wrong (which is why there has been a debate on classique) and the bless it... but everyone else says Ferrari is wrong its not cut and dry. Im going to try to make a ridiculous example just so that I am not being missinterpreted. If ferrari says the sky is Red... and they certify it. And the sky is still blue to the rest of the world. I don't care that they certify it as red.
     
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  3. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    We know that someone hacked up the rear mounting tubing during 003/0846's time in David Piper's possession, whether the car was built up from one of three identical replica frames commissioned by David Piper, or whether the car was built up from the remains of the original 0846 chassis.

    Therefore, while Steve's findings were informative that the current JG 003/0846 rear chassis framework does not look like the chassis in the Karl Ludvigsen photos, it's not remotely conclusive as to whether the chassis of 003 used to be the chassis of 0846. We KNOW that the rear mounting tubes were hacked up while it was in Piper's custody, so we should expect that it looks different to how it looked before.

    If Ferrari delisted 0846 when they scrapped the chassis, and now wishes to re-list this chassis as 0846 and declares it to be 0846, then this IS the original 0846, end of discussion. Remember, Ferrari didn't destroy the chassis, just placed it in a junk heap and removed the serial number from the list of existing cars. For discussion purposes, Paul, let's suppose that Tom Meade had a hidden storage facility that was just discovered today, and inside it is the entire complete chassis of 0846 as he recovered it from the Ferrari junk pile in the 1960s - do you still say that couldn't be or can not be 0846 as "0846 is long gone"? If Ferrari has investigated the car and concluded that it is built from enough of 0846 chassis to be called 0846, then that's conclusive and final.

    I am reminded of the 375+ 0384 thread, where Ferrari rebuilt 0384 from a few rusted fragments - the current restored 0384 could easily contain much less of the original 0384 that JG's 0846 contains of the original 0846. It apparently doesn't take much of the original car to be actually present in a restoration for a rebuilt car to keep the serial number!
     
  4. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    Guess continuity doesn't count on your discussion.

    I do await the actual evidence. Not summaries of alledged items but the information. And a "suit" in the front office of SpA is a lot less important than the right people from Classiche.
     
  5. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    #8429 GordonC, Jul 21, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2016
    Piper has the continuity information, and refuses to share. If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it, did it really fall? If, hypothetically, Tom Meade stashed the disowned frame of 0846 from Ferrari's trash pile into a storage shed where it sat for 40 years before being found after Meade's death, is that a discontinuity just because nobody knew it was there? If Ferrari states that JG's car is in fact the long lost 0846, with history unknown between the trash pile and Piper, does that invalidate Ferrari's confirmation?

    I am also very interested to read the new Ferrari information about 003/0846!
     
  6. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    Continuity is not taking a recycled frame (which I remain highly skeptical about) and reassembling an assortment of parts that did not know each other in period to recreate what had once been.
     
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  8. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Oh, dear me, Mr Glickenhaus!!!! The geometry of ALL the chassis engine mountings would need to change completely if you lowered the engine and moved it forward. Every mounting would need to change and would not be reversible in the way you state.

    How would you make the engine sit lower in the chassis at the bulkhead end just by removing the shims/spacers between the engine and rear cockpit bulkhead? Without changing the tubes to lower the mounting points in the bulkhead the engine will only be tilted at the very back and not completely lowered and levelled. Plus, without lowering and levelling the engine at the bulkhead end the bolts will not go through the bolt holes in the engine as the bolt holes in the bulkhead tubes will be at the wrong angle. How also are you going to stop the engine from touching the chassis which is the main purpose of these spacers? I would guess these are insulating washers, not shims/spacers.

    The omnidirectional multi tubes that make up the forward side engine mountings will all have to be changed to different lengths to compensate for the nearing and lowering of these engine mounts to the bulkhead.

    There are also mounting points for the engine at the very back of the chassis. By lowering the engine and moving it forward none of the existing mountings at the back would line up. They would also be further away.

    I could go on........
     
  9. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    Agreed, but nothing is correct and ‘cut and dry’ at all. If Ferrari and Classiche should certify DP0003 as ‘1966 works Ferrari P3/4 0846’, there is an original Classiche Certificate with a falsified date of the car’s construction and falsified information about the car’s constructor i.a. (as well as a calculated misrepresentation through concealment of the facts). However, I will certainly stay amused and highly entertained …!
     
  10. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    Funny LGS. You based your whole cause on Ferrari doesn't recognize this car so it is not real, now that they possibly recognize this car you say they don't know what they are talking about. Or lying.

    You may want to refer to john Houghtaling's explanation of standard of proof.
     
  11. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    Ferrari knows exactly what they are talking about and confirmed in writing long ago, that a number 0846 stopped to exist and – eventual! – remains were not foreseen to build another car.
     
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  13. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

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    #8435 PAUL500, Jul 22, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2016
    The carefully crafted wording in Jims latest input has been copied and pasted on other forums as well. It takes the casual reader/observer down a path to a certain conclusion, but look at each word/ phrase one by one and that conclusion does not actually get reached.

    Very much like the wording in the brief letter MF signed in English, even after MF had stated that Italian documentation take precedence prior to the actual signing of that letter.

    It also does not answer any of the questions raised in recent months on this thread.

    The key words are "present day 0846" ie Piper 003 registered as 0846 in New York, no association now made as to it also being the original 0846 in Jims latest statement.

    "Fit P4 engine as per Daytona" ie the chassis of 003 will accept a P4 engine in the same location as an original P4 chassis/or as per the original 0846 in period. Again that is factually correct, but does not mean 003 is the original 0846 either.

    (My understanding is that its actually an F1 spec block in 003 not p4 as stated).

    "Over time most race cars receive many modifications" yes Piper had the chassis of 003 modified, that is confirmed in the auction details when it was up for sale, is this now trying to link what MF said about others in Ferrari carrying out the engine location mods on 003?

    This "post Daytona" perceived mod back to p3 elements over time now being touted? though has never been the claim thus far, the original claim, and the reason for the association of 003 with the original 0846 was that it could also accept a p3 engine, so the conclusion was as the original 0846 started life as a p3 and the only one to be converted to P4 spec. then they must therefore be one in the same.

    It now seems Jim is acknowledging that 0846 as raced at Daytona was actually full p4 spec as per the recent period pics with no p3 elements retained and the p3 element in 003 are a post Daytona reworking back to p3 spec of the original 0846 and thus 003 must be the same chassis?

    None of the above actually verifies that 003 has any original 0846 DNA in it, but splice them together and it makes it appear like that.

    The car itself does not need all this smoke and mirrors being applied to it, it should be heralded for what it undisputably is, a superb homage/tribute to the long gone original 0846, and built from period parts.

    Reading between the lines that is probably what Ferrari are now recognising it as, but we shall see I guess.

    Plus who is this "Ferrari" person/people that have reviewed the car/ the situation in 2016 as the company has many many employees, that association with "Ferrari" could range from the guy that cleans the toilets in the local dealership stating the car is the original 0846, right through to the MD of Ferrari Spa, it makes a huge difference as to who is putting their head above the parapet within the organisation and now supporting Jims theory as he claims.
     
  14. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    #8436 Vincent Vangool, Jul 22, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2016
    That was then, this is now. New things hath come to light dude. Happens, when one investigates further.

    When they said this originally, had they had the car to inspect for several months?

    You have been riding that Ferrari has the final say since you first posted. Now that they might finally say something different, are you changing course from their word is gold, to fit what you hope the car to be? Whether it is or isn't?

    I think it comes down to discussion of the frame forward, as well as aft of the firewall.

    Although Piloti likes to write the accident damage off as nothing, I feel he is far off.

    If you take 100 cars to 100 body shops, 99 of those shops could tell you how 99 cars were damaged. A guy like Hajduck, can look at it and determine how it happened. I can only hope his knowledge is part of why Ferrari seems to have shifted course.

    And seriously, what happened to this frame during the Piper years? How did he build, modify, and damage the frame? Why so secretive? Come on now!

    So if Ferrari agree's that this is indeed the chassis remains of 0846 are you gonna jump on the Miura SVU Vs. Ferrari train? Or stick with your original logic of what Ferrari says it is, it is?

    Bottom line is if the frame survived it is the remains of 0846 whether Ferrari says so or not. And if they say so... are you still gonna claim that it's not?
     
  15. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Texas!
  16. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    I think its fairly obvious by now that there are certain posters that don't want this car to be 0846 and no Ferrari confirmation is going to change that.

    Fascinated to see what's coming next...
     
  17. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

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    Well I am certainly not one of those, I just want it clear to everyone what exactly Jim owns.

    So far its Piper 003 - no one disputes that, which Jim converted to appear like the original 0846 - no one disputes that.

    Beyond that point there is no definitive answer thus far.

    If a recognised expert of the P cars within Ferrari or recognised/ directly authorised by them at a senior technical level as a true authority, states directly (not just via interested parties) that the chassis of the car Jim owns has a sufficiently direct metal connection to the original 0846 chassis then that is all it takes for me, and I imagine most other people, to agree its DNA is original to that of 0846.

    However if its via Alfredo the valeter who washes the cars after they leave the assembly at Maranello that is making the claim, who said to Maria the waitress at the cafe around the corner, who mentioned it to Josepe the taxi driver who texted his cousin in Manhattan who emailed Wax, then it's not going to hold any water.

    As you state, lets see how this now plays out, but I would not be holding your breath quite yet.
     
  18. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    I do hope it is solid proof and not open to opinion.

    Pete
     
  19. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #8441 miurasv, Jul 23, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2016
    Where is the Ferrari confirmation? We have seen absolutely no evidence of it whatsoever. Given that the evidence we already have is that Mr Glickehnhaus's chassis cannot be 0846 and then stating that documents will be published in "several months" time when it is alleged there is already July 2016 written confirmation from Ferrari that P4 Chassis 0846 is owned by James Glickenhaus is just too much to ask.
     
  20. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Steve,
    Please be careful with your words. Your efforts have been very effective lately and using sentences like: Given that the evidence we already have is that Mr Glickehnhaus's chassis cannot be 0846 ..., when there is a way that DP003 still could be #0846 although I agree that it is unlikely, do not help your viewpoint or cause.

    Let me explain the possibilities:
    1. The front of the chassis may contain parts of #0846. Hopefully if this is the case the evidence is solid, please.
    2. The rear part of the DP003 chassis is #0846 and post it's Ferrari racing career somebody hacked the P4 style chassis to fit a P3 engine and further or at the same time, hacked it to fit a F1 engine.

    Unfortunately just because it is made out of steel tubes does not mean that an angle grinder and welding machine can't change and confuse things.

    Please continue to use factural evidence you find to prove the case. The Karl photos were very damn useful. Well found!
    Pete
     
  21. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    Patience is a virtue and all that.

    Just like the wait for your MF emails...
     
  22. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    I have a feeling that even if Piero Ferrari gave his blessing there would be a small group here that would question his credentials and continue to bang the drum.

    That is the nature of things when you don't want something to be true...
     
  23. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #8445 miurasv, Jul 23, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2016
    The difference between what Mr Glickenhaus has stated and what I have posted, which can be verified, is that I have stated who has written what, which is Ing. Forghieri, the evidence used to make the determination, which was Mr Glickenhaus's own photographs of his chassis and what he has actually stated whereas Mr Glickenhaus has not stated who at Ferrari is the author of the alleged confirmation, how the determination was made and what has actually been stated.
     
  24. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Steve,

    We have no choice but to wait and see what is shown to us. Everything posted until then in this thread is a complete waste of time :)
    Pete
     
  25. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    Whoever JG has spoken to at Ferrari (if that has indeed happened) is currently being spared your emails and phone calls due to their name NOT being posted. I am quite sure that they will thank him for that small mercy until such time...
     
  26. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Fair comment, Pete but you are forgetting the evidence we have from Ing. Forghieri which cannot be dismissed. After seeing the pictures of Mr Glickenhaus's chassis, he has written that it is not the car he took for testing at Daytona. Therefore it is not 0846 and it is not the Daytona winner. He has also made a statement which includes reference to the front section as follows:

    "The rear portion of the Glickenhaus’ fake P4 is completely new and these details couldn’t have been missed by coachbuilders that built real P4s. It’s in the front section, that has not been restored, that I believe there are the biggest differences from a real one."
     
  27. Sire Bruno de Losckley

    Aug 1, 2006
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    "The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread "

    ha-aha-aha-ah


    The one and only it was destroyed by the factory. Everything else is just wrong. True or false true false it is the same
     
  28. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Mr Glickenhaus may be a dollar billionaire but the evidence he has so far posted supporting that his chassis is Ferrari 0846 is absolutely bankrupt. Regarding the Ferrari evidence he now claims to have he is effectively asking for credit with no set time in the future to pay. Please can somebody inform Mr Glickenhaus that bankrupts are not allowed credit.
     

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