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Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.
All in good time, my pretty. Allll in good time. *cackle*
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Citations are being requested.
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I am waiting to see those citations and their exact details. The Ferrari stance claimed is completely contradicted by 1) 0846 no longer exists and 2) having been directly told by a Classiche outside consultant this this car will never be accepted as 0846.
But as we all know, statements on the internet are always correct.
The organizers of the Targa Florio never confirmed the identity of a car. They just confirmed the car's race-entry according the entry-form provided of the entrant ... masses of replicas like Cobras, TR 250, GT40, P3/4 etc ... not original cars but the entry fee, the show and publicity counts in Sicily ... and: Ferrari confirmed in writing that a number 0846 does not exist any more, has been scrapped and - eventual! - remains should not be used to built another car. Let's see if something has changed.
My point was that some posters are always up for commentary to prove their claims but when David Piper is mentioned they say what he did or didn't do is not important or otherwise make glib comments. Anyone can take proof from selective sources and make claims based on that.......... On either side of the argument, it simply demeans that sides claim to have proven once and for all, is all.
El Wayne is what is called a moderator on this site. That means he can create threads by gathering posts by OTHER users into a new thread. This is how Napolis's thread appears first, even though El Wayne created it.
So there are 2 ways (maybe more?) to create a thread:
1. You as a poster start a new thread.
2. You as a moderator take a post from another thread and create a new thread with that post as the first one.
Hope that removes your confusion, and what El Wayne was saying.
He is our overlord.
+1. cue Dr Evil style laughter in the El Wayne household I am sure.
I actually started this thread. It doesn't seem like it was that long ago, and candidly, it stills seems like things I would ask today.
Oddly, the questions from the person that caused me to post this is a dear friend today.
No reason to high jack, but the fact that Napolis has been with us and sharing for so long, is super cool.
After almost 15 years, the car is still generating debates.... I guess that means we won't have everyone agreeing anytime soon....
"Somebody" added citation details to some of the ones requested but a moderator at Wikipedia has deemed the citations added to be unreliable or unsuitable. Unsurprisingly, no citation has yet been added to the claimed and unproven July 2016 statement that Ferrari confirmed in writing that P4 Chassis 0846 is owned by James Glickenhaus.
Also quite a few other citations have been requested by Wikipedia on this Ferrari P page which seems to be devoted to Mr Glickenhaus authenticating his "falso P4" replica as 0846 and categorising his P4/5 cars in amongst the Ferrari P cars when there really is no connection.
A lot (maybe most) of the posters in that thread are still around. Funny how it went from PF Coupe headrests to 0846.
Even funnier, lately I've developed quite an interest in PF Coupes, so the headrest discussion was interesting for me to re-read.
Keep in mind that our collective knowledge has come a long way since 2002! I haven't re-read the thread myself, but my gut tells me you probably shouldn't rely on much of what was posted in there.
The fact that Wikipedia is become the source of truth for this thread really says it all.
I don't think you understand what's happening here. Have you asked yourself who the author may be of all the misinformation that there is regarding these cars and in particular of 0846 that there is on the Ferrari P Wikipedia page?
I understand who the author is Steve, but as anybody can write anything it is well ... heck it sort of sums up this whole debate.
I don't really want to say much more, but based on Karl Ludvigsen's photos we know for a fact that DP003's engine mounts are incorrect for #0846. This is not how Ferrari converted a P3 to a P4, and in fact we have confirmed that DP003 was built as a P4, it has become a very hard road to justify that DP003 was built on the remains of #0846's chassis. Yes there is still the modification of the top water hose pipe but ...
Wonderful and simply awesome car, and it has lots of genuine parts bolted on. Must be a thrill to sit in and drive
Yes, bingo and fully agreed! Most fantastic genuine parts but no Ferrari. This we know for years and now its confirmed again with the recent pictures. But the issue here is not this, but the correct information of the public e.g. in Wikipedia. Where is Ferrari's mentioned confirmation in writing of July 2016? And where and how is the legal identity of 0846 confirmed from the Italian Government, Ferrari or the organizers of the Targa Florio?
You are quite correct. All P car engines, suspension etc. require laborious shimming. Using a ruler you can measure a P3 Block and a P4 block and understand what you have to do if you want to fit a P4 engine into a P3 chassis. We can of course fit present day 0846's P4 engine into the car as it is today exactly as it raced at Daytona with it's rear engine mounts directly bolted to the original P3 rear chassis engine mounts but elect to keep the very clever modification that moved the engine forward and down at a later stage in 0846's racing career. This of course improves the F/R balance by pushing the engine forward and lowers the CG by lowering the engine. It also stiffens the entire rear of the car by reducing the polar mass lever distance. This was/is done by removing the shims/spacers between the engine and the rear cockpit bulkhead and making up the difference at the rear chassis engine mounts. Over time most race cars receive many modifications and this was a clever one easily reversed by adding shims at the front and the rear engine/chassis mounting today would then look exactly as it did at Daytona in 1967.
During the period of May-July 2016 Ferrari investigated P4 0846 and confirmed that I have owned Ferrari P4 0846 since 2000 and that the car is presently in my possession. They also created dispositive documents reflecting that fact and very interestingly confirmed in another document that they created that the date of Manufacture of The P4 I currently own is chassis 0846 and it's date of manufacture is 1966. There is only one P4 who's date of manufacture is 1966, chassis 0846. In several months I will publish Ferrari's written statements and the dispositive documents they created and additional information which is still in the works and not yet finished.
RE last paragraph.
That is awesome! At least it could be! I hope there is some documentation to straighten this mess out in my head so I can move on to other things in my life. HA HA HA. Id love to be able to fully understand this whole thing!
So my only sceptical point to make and I won't be the only one to make it or at very least think it is... Ferrari doesn't have the best credibility when certifying the older cars.
However, they are the factory. And if they say it, claim it, bless it... or whatever... then... as a common person it is pretty difficult to have enough credibility to counter claim it.
I am excited to learn why the argument put forth by Steve is wrong. It seemed like such damning evidence.
Also what prompted Ferrari to finally weigh in on the situation?
You have stated that Ferrari have already confirmed in writing (July, 2016) that you own P4 Chassis 0846 so why not post proof of that now? Why wait several months? How many months is several? Several months could mean years. Are you trying to buy time here?
Yep. Quite the process, then and certainly now.
All along, it was only, and I do mean - only - a matter of time for Ferrari to get their very own Koshering salts & knives out and settle this matter.
Speaking of time . . .
But wait, there's more!
Key word: Wait.
Ferrari is Ferrari , the classique debate has been at odds on here as well since inception. If Ferrari says its correct, then it's correct. As time marches on the classicque will dictate because Ferrari now has a record of it in its books from the day they approved. If the factory comes out with a document and recognizes 0846 , then it goes from striked from the records, to being in the records. Pretty cut and dry at that point.
Still struggling to understand how the original 0846 chassis shown in the recently listed period Daytona photos, which clearly does not have P3 engine mounting location points then made use of these non existent fitting later down the line in history?
MF never made any mention of the original 0846 having any adjustability in the chassis post Daytona, when he confirmed the set up in Jims chassis is not the way Ferrari would have gone about the conversion from P3 to P4 either.
Ferrari have never disputed Jim registering 003 in the states and him deciding to call it a number such as 0846 they have however confirmed, as has MF that the original 0846 is long gone.
Is Jim stating Ferrari are accepting it as a tribute car? rather than the actual original 0846? in that case we all agree it is a lovely homage to the original 0846
I guess Paul, there must be a couple (?) of tubes up the front that potentially were from the original #0846 ...
I personally just wish we had had Karl's photos ~10 years ago! What a different thread this would have been.
Well said PSK but with details like the above threads can last forever