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The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
    tewksbury
    Full Name:
    george burgess
    You are better directing this to David Piper. Good luck, but anyone who can get him to open up may clarify things though I have my doubts. Piper meets in secret with Enzo Ferrari. No witnesses or notes taken that we know of.As I interpret this meeting when over, E.F. basicly washed his hands of the whole P 3/4 project , the reasons for which have , again, not inany detail, been briefly discussed Gozzi and Bazzi who apparently went along with E.F.s wishes. Who didn't. Those who didn't were either fired or quit like in the 1962 revolt. Phil Hill could have stayed on but later in that year he had had enough of E.F and waked. out.Had he stayed he could well have been World Champion again considering the superior power of the Ferrari GP engines. There is much more to all of this but Forgieri and co. did continue to have a hand in building several modified P4 machines, to be raced by Mararinello Copnsessionaires, in sort of a back room operation.Here lies the real issue. No written records or build sheets were eather made or if so have been lost. So this leaves us with only some not so accurate images and old memories to work from. Egyptologists have more to go on as at least they can now read the ancient Egyptian language, ie. something in writing and drawings.to look at.In comparison Ferrari historians for these last of the P series cars have mostly undocumented information only to go on. So who really will ever know where and how some modified engine was was bolted into a mostly undocumented chassis. The world loves to pontificate on the undocumented. This really is what is going on here. Let them have their fun, enjoy the controversy, and just go on. tongascrew
     
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  3. technom3

    technom3 F1 Veteran
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    Justin
    I agree largely with all that you are saying and especially with the last 3 sentances or so.

    Yes, Piper could clear this whole thing up it seems in about 1 or 2 sentances. But... thats apparently not going to happen for whatever strange reason. (not assurting any sort of bias here, he has his reasons either dubious or just out of pure fun etc... LOL)

    I guess what I was interested in hearing from you is, since you did have a 130 page document on this car (which I haven't seen admittedly) what did you think of the last few pictures. To us slightly educated amatuers it looks to be pretty daming. I mean to me it looks clear... but I am not up to snuff enuff to say "thats it case closed!" Although Id love to... and it really does SEEM closed or damn near shut. I guess Id like someone who is familiar to refute/debunk the pictures. I think the pictures are very clear and they aren't confusing. TO ME its apparent... like so apparent I am missing something...
     
  4. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    Jul 11, 2004
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    Justin
    It's apparent to most of us.
    As has been said before - you don't need the words of Piper or Forghieri when you have photo evidence. Not knowing the whole story doesn't change the photo evidence.
    Nathan
     
  5. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
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    Texas!
    Thanks. I appreciate it.
     
  6. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

    Oct 18, 2009
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    Phill J
    Here's a dose of reality for all of you posting in this thread:

    None of you are ever going to know the truth about 0846, no matter how long you end up discussing it!.

    You can look at all of the old photographs that you want to, you can argue for and against the information given by the various people who have ever been involved with the chassis and the cars involved with 0846, and you can hypothesis all you like about the various theories on the subject, the fact of the matter is: You're never going to know the truth!

    What doesn't help the case for either side is that the fact that none of you have access to the most important piece of evidence of all: The disputed chassis in question!

    Thanks to the constant accusations, harassment, bullying and crusade carried out by certain members on Fchat against the owner of the disputed car/chassis, he has decided to leave the forum and enjoy his cars for himself, his friends and family - including the disputed car/chassis.

    So now, no one is a position to check any details of the chassis to prove the case either way.

    That means, unless everyone involved in this thread agrees to disagree and just let the whole matter go, it will just run and run and get absolutely nowhere because there will never be conclusive proof either way! -You're all just wasting your time!

    (Hmm........Based on how things go on Fchat with these sort of threads, I wonder what the outcome will be? :rolleyes: )
     
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  8. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Steven Robertson
    The fact is that the pictures of Mr Glickenhaus's actual chassis and the real 0846 do tell the truth. It's not a case of we will never know at all. We already know. What is evident is that certain people are in denial and will not accept the truth.
     
  9. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,269
    Read the title of the thread, then note the person who originated it.

    Simple case of don't start a debate thread if you don't want a debate! and then take your ball home if it does not go your own way.

    The whole debate can in fact be ignored, just stick with the photos which don't lie, either the originals of 0846 posted recently or the ones presented by Jim of his car in his pdf.

    They are clearly not the same chassis.

     
  10. El Wayne

    El Wayne F1 World Champ
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    Aug 1, 2002
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    L. Wayne Ausbrooks
    I disagree with this.

    Not only did the current owner publicly declare his belief that the remains of 0846 were incorporated into this chassis, but he put a great deal of time and effort into documenting the basis for his belief. Among other things, he photographed the pertinent components and shared those photographs and other documents with the public. As a result, everyone here has or has access to detailed photographs of the modified engine mounts on this chassis, along with the owner's argument for why those engine mounts are evidence that his chassis is the one upgraded from P3 to P4 spec by Ferrari and subsequently raced at Daytona in 1967.

    Thanks to noted automotive photographer Karl Ludvigsen, everyone here also has or has access to detailed photographs of 0846 at Daytona in 1967, clearly showing how the engine was mounted to the chassis after the upgrade from P3 to P4 spec. A simple comparison between the two can be made without physical access to either chassis.

    Again, I disagree. I think it is the people with little knowledge of a particular subject, and who have nothing material to add to a particular discussion, yet jump into the Vintage forum threads and post irrelevant commentary who are wasting their time (and perhaps me, as I take the time to construct and post a response).
     
  11. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
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    tewksbury
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    george burgess
    Lets not forget that the Ferrari factory messed about with the "original" for two years. Then at just a few months older than one year the car caught fire at Le Mans and the remains were returned to Maranello where some of the remains were parted out and the rest of the car was declared no longer existing. This should be where the story ends. However Piper shortly there after acquired much of what remained of the P 3/4 project from the scrapyard and over the next thirty years built four reproductions which he and a few others campaigned with some success and various configurations for the next thirty odd years.Keeping track of original sns basically was not even a small part of this effort. Skip ahead to July 2002 Glickenhaus bought from Piper one of these reproductions.The car was completely torn down and rebuilt.I will not go into the details of how Glickenhaus came to the conclusion that over 80% of his car came from #0846. There are several hundred F C posts on this subject which, in the long run, do little to make the connection between the original #0846 and the car of Jim Glickenhaus. There are no build sheets, no blue prints or other working drawings, no written documents of the details of the original design or construction of #0846.Finally there are only two living soles around today who had a significant role with the "original" #0846. One has no really clear recollection and the other is mute. No respected museum or collector will ever acquire this machine and claim it as the original #0846.Even the Ferrari Museum who has a record on occasion of miss labeling a particular exhibit, I believe, would take this on.As I used to say " this is just one man's opinion". tonga's crew
     
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  13. El Wayne

    El Wayne F1 World Champ
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    Let me clarify this: I created this thread and gave it this title.

    Napolis appeared on FerrariChat and announced he was the owner of 330 P3/4 chassis no. 0846. He was immediately confronted by naysayers (I believe I was the first), and the debate began. Multiple threads on the topic began popping up all over the place. Every time Napolis would post an image of this car or make mention of it, the debate would take over that thread. It was spilling into all other areas of the site and ruining the F-Chat experience for other users, most of whom couldn't care less about this car or its origins. In order to contain the discussion, I created this thread, merged most of the existing discussions into one, and proscribed anyone from taking the debate over this car into other areas of FerrariChat.

    The first posts in this thread did not originate in this thread, and were not the first posts on this subject. In fact, this discussion started on the old DiscusWare version of FerrariChat, and so those posts couldn't be merged into this thread. The original posts can be found in this thread. Napolis posted three photos of what appeared to me to be a 330 P/4. When I asked him to identify the car, this was his response:

     
  14. emcauto

    emcauto Karting

    Jul 1, 2009
    238
    So he agreed to the debate correct? Paul 500 has a point You might have asked Napolis but he agreed

    This is the impression Im getting
     
  15. El Wayne

    El Wayne F1 World Champ
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    While I may, on occasion, consult with the site administrator or other moderators before taking certain actions here, and while I may have a great deal of respect for Napolis, I don't recall ever asking Napolis' permission to perform any moderator duties or take any moderator actions on this site.
     
  16. emcauto

    emcauto Karting

    Jul 1, 2009
    238
    Let me clarify this: I created this thread and gave it this title.

    you lost me..............First original post to this thread is Napolis ...........let the debate begin? where do you come in from this?
     
  17. El Wayne

    El Wayne F1 World Champ
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    Not sure why you're lost. Read my post again:

     
  18. emcauto

    emcauto Karting

    Jul 1, 2009
    238
    The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

    Started November 11 2003 by Naplois himself? Yes I understand the fundamentals to what you do. So who convinced him to be the first post on this long lasting thread we are asking
     
  19. El Wayne

    El Wayne F1 World Champ
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    Seriously? If you won't even read the stuff you're quoting, then I don't see any point in continuing to try to explain it to you.

    Sigh. One last time:
     
  20. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran

    Feb 22, 2004
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    Tom Wiggers
    2nd time: no build sheets, no blue prints, ...... ARE YOU SURE?
     
  21. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

    Apr 5, 2010
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    Timothy Russell
    Good points George but why is he mute and why do some people make glib comments such as that is not important what he did or didn't do or we don't need his information. Ditto for the man with no clear recollection. Just saying.
     
  22. emcauto

    emcauto Karting

    Jul 1, 2009
    238
    Thanks coach .........sigh
     
  23. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,269
    Full apologies to Jim in that case, I was not a member when the debate started, like most I read the thread title and the listed author, so it does appear misleading that Jim opened the debate even if that was not the case or the intent when the threads were merged..


     
  24. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
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    george burgess
    One cannot be totally sure about so much of this subject. I believe there are documents about the early P series Ferrari car designs. However no two were ever originally built exactly the same.Nor, the experts, of which I do not claim to be one, can sort some of this out.Or if you happen to have vast amounts of free time you can go thru this entire thread and see what can be found. A summary of the subject would be .... just one of many nice things. tonga's crew
     
  25. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
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    george burgess
    Just another of what makes this whole subject so mysterious. It looks like we may never know.But "tomorrow is another day".As for Forghieri some of the same applies.I have the book. Maybe I will just get it out and do another book review. tonga's crew.
     
  26. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Steven Robertson
    #8398 miurasv, Jul 17, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    In addition to masses of misinformation on the Ferrari P Wikipedia page "somebody" now claims: "In July 2016 Ferrari confirmed in writing that P4 Chassis 0846 is owned by James Glickenhaus"
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  27. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 20, 2003
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    Dirty Harry
    Old news to me. ;)
     
  28. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Perhaps you could show the forum members the actual confirmation in writing.
     

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