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The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    #8351 miurasv, Jul 7, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I am very busy at the moment but here's a pic that confirms the car is a Spider. There are other details that confirm the car in the picture is 0846. The pic is at Daytona and the other P4 there was 0856 which was in Berlinetta configuration at that time.
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  3. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Thank you.

    Okay it is a pity but it is what it is. I'm out :).
    Pete
     
  4. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #8353 miurasv, Jul 8, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    PSk Pete asked for proof that the Karl Ludvigsen pictures I have posted of the engine mountings are of the real 0846 which was a reasonable request.

    The 2 pictures of the 0846 chassis stamp are blow ups from the first picture. You can also see from the third picture that the marks/scratches around the stamp are exactly the same in all the pictures as are many other details that prove they are the same car. Circled in red is the P4 engine mount with the large bolt hole proving the real 0846 did not retain its P3 mountings when converted to P4.

    You can also compare the above pictures with the pictures of the ones that show the rear side mountings and see they are of the same car.
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  5. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    So.... Where's Napolis? What says Jim?

    Matt
     
  6. muk_yan_jong

    muk_yan_jong Formula Junior

    Oct 11, 2008
    413
    Even with a lot of "new" pictures, the presentation/captions/conclusions still seem hasty and disjointed.

    Feels as if there is a lot of rope being played out by the Keys just to see how far it will go before being pulled taut.

    High drama regardless. Fun to watch.
     
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  8. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    Please explain, what is hasty and disjointed. Those period pictures certainly provide more information than all the trolling tales and the endless speculation before. However, the silence of the lambs is interesting and all this is educative and solid entertainment.
     
  9. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #8357 miurasv, Jul 10, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    In the first picture, which is Mr Glickenhaus's own picture from his 0846 on line pdf, you can see his car chassis DP0003 from the back. Please ignore the red circles and arrows in this first picture. The second picture with the yellow circle and yellow arrows is a blow up of the first picture of the left hand side rear engine mount. Within the yellow circle, the arrow pointing down is at the angled bush to compensate for the engine mounting not lining up with the chassis engine mount. The arrow pointing up is where the angled bush actually bolts to the engine.

    Compare these pictures with the 3rd and 4th pictures which are of the real 0846 at Daytona 1967 where the chassis mountings match the engine mountings with no need for bolt on adaptors. They should however hold up fine for Sunday drives as Mr Glickenhaus likes to do as stated on page 13 of his on line 0846 fantasy pdf.

    The fifth picture is another of Mr Glickenhaus's own pictures from his on line 0846 pdf of the same area pictured from above with his disproved explanations captioned. It is also untrue that the wheelbase of 0846 was shortened by 12mm. 0846's wheelbase was 2400mm both as a P3 and as a P4.
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  10. Daytona Rick

    Daytona Rick Formula 3

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    This has got to be the longest thread ever. Jim has a fantastic car, no matter what it actually is or what people think it is. I'm just glad Jim is in the position to be the current keeper of this fantastic car, among others, maintains it and shares it at so many events with all of us. Way to go Jim. I can't wait till he completes his current restoration and shares that with all of us.
     
  11. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
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    I don't recall one single person ever disputing any of what you say within this thread. It was only the change in identity of the car that was ever questioned.
     
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  13. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    I have a file of well over 130 pages of internet copy of#0846.If I had copied the entire file I don't think there is enough recycled paper to put it all on and I would need to put a large addition on the house to store it. Realistically all we have to go on in the way of historical documentation are the photographs that Jim has of the chassis as he received it from David Piper.There are no original blueprints or written or photographic records of the original design or construction specifically of #0846.Everything else is from memory of those directly involved in this particular project from the very beginning. Many of those involved are no longer with us which, one might say, is a good thing avoiding further confusion.The historic documentation available is for the generic P 3/4, not specifically for #0846.Of the major players, David Piper and Mauro Forghieri and their recollections are what we have to go on until Glickenhaus acquired #0846 and photographed just about every move he and Sal made. Piper is not talking and Forghieri is going on his memory only.Decades have passed. Both these men were involved with hundreds of Ferrari chassis from long ago so what documentation we have now to go on specifically for #0846 are Jim's original photographs and his restoration of what most believe is #0846. Like most archeological efforts they are never closed, nor is this one.The best one can do is enjoy the possibilities for what they are and live with the unsolvable. tonga's crew
     
  14. technom3

    technom3 F1 Veteran
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    I dont see the conclusions as hasty or disjointed. They are supported with photographic evidence. In the last several pages everything is laid out maturly and with evidence to support it. I don't see how that seems hasty or disjointed.

    I would love to call it conclusive but I feel that might be overstepping it a touch. It most certainly is VERY strong evidence that I myself cant dispute. I would be interested if Jim G. could/would. This is not a strike at Jim G. I am just curious what he genuinely thinks. He may or may not come back on this thread.

    I think the only people who truly care if the car is real or not are the car enthusiasts, maybe a few that would or wouldn't allow it into a high end car show and probably whoever insures the car. The latter being the only one who has a financial stake in it.

    Jim certainly has a financial stake in it but... he bought it as a replica and if it is... he got what he purchased. He has lots of other neat cars and projects going on. While I am sure it would be nice to have it be a true/real car... I don't think he is going to kick it out of his garage regardless... so what its worth... probably doesn't matter.
     
  15. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    George - you obviously haven't read the last few pages of this thread.
    There ARE photos of 0846 taken at Daytona in 1967. They are shown in this thread!
    The chassis is clearly identified from the chassis tag, and the differences between the real 0846 and the claimed 0846 are clear to see.
    No one is claiming to rely on memory any more. No one needs the memories of Forghieri or Piper.
    Go back and read the thread.
    Nathan
     
  16. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran

    Feb 22, 2004
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    "There are no original blueprints or written or photographic records of the original design or construction specifically of #0846"

    Are you 100% sure?
     
  17. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    I Personaly believe there are indeed engineering drawings for the modifications done to 0846. I would think there must be. Where they are is anybobies guess however, but it certainly would be quite a find if they are out there beneath the big blue sky.
     
  18. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Nathan, a favor? I'm lazy and late to the current gen of this thread. What is your take?
     
  19. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
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    To this day, John Hajduk feels this is 0846 & not a replica.

    Also feels miurasv is a "nut", whose ideas he was trying to put in John's head, let alone trying to get to make statements contrary to actual beliefs. Hung up on "nut", ignored other calls & doesn't want to be bothered by "nut" or his ilk again.



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  20. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
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    Why not comment on the recent photos Wax rather than simply spout hearsay?
     
  21. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Disagree. There would be P4 drawings only and from the rear bulkhead back Steve has proved #0846 was 100% P4.

    Why we are ignoring period photos is beyond me!. We finally know the chassis details in regards to the engine mounts. We can even clearly see the chassis number!

    The only way DP003 could be #0846 is if somebody converted the engine mounts to enable a P3 engine and then hacked them to install a F1 engine ... not impossible but unlikely.

    Everything lines up to what DP sold Jim, a P4 replica that has had it's engine mounts hacked around with. If I was Jim, I would cut off the hacked up engine mounts and do it properly, like the P4's were/are. After all, it is not necessary for him to ever mount a P3 engine it, he can just start up #0854 :).
    Pete
     
  22. greg246

    greg246 F1 World Champ
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    And what was the purpose of calling Steve a "nut"?
     
  23. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    are

    Apparently Jim Glickenhous seems to think Forgihieri's recollecctions are important. As Piper isn't talking which is totally understandable and reasonable we are left with masses of images which are not conclusive.. Look, I am no expert on this subject despite my 130 + pages. Jim owns the car and can say what ever he wants The chassis tag has no relevance to the measurements of what it is attached to or whether that item was changed later on.During construction in this period in Italy many if not most Ferraris were changed in one way or another from blueprints or design drawings which also may well have not been totally accurate.Building a one off and very complex racing machine of this period lends itself to making adjustments along the way.The beauty is in the final product, regardless of minor adjustments in fitting together the many hundreds of parts going into the project.These questions will never be correctly answered so live with it. tonga's crew
     
  24. technom3

    technom3 F1 Veteran
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    I agree and I am relieved to hear you say you are not an expert. Who is? right? The more we learn the less we know! lol

    So can I ask you opinion on the last photos? Can you deny the "evidence" that has been provided? ( I don't mean this to come across in a argumentative way. I am genuinely asking)
     
  25. emcauto

    emcauto Karting

    Jul 1, 2009
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    John Hajduk feels this is 0846 & not a replica. because ..............?? he said so? said too you or? Must be more to it correct?


    John feels this is a 0846 is different than what might John know .

    Can you elaborate to what else he might of said in regard to 0846?
     
  26. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Okay I can see this thread has a life of it's own ... insanity does exist ;)

    Best and enjoy, but please put your health and family first!
    Pete
     
  27. NürScud

    NürScud F1 Veteran

    Nov 3, 2012
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    +1
     
  28. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    Well, the photos posted by Miurasv look pretty convincing. The story of the car and the engine mountings as proposed by Napolis does not match that of the evidence in the photos.
    Nathan
     

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