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The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,257
    #8201 PAUL500, Jun 1, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
    Saved me a lot of typing above, but basically a race car has no VIN for road use registration, simply a factory designated number for race ID purposes, stamped into the metal on the chassis or via a tag riveted to the chassis. The carnet system which allowed race cars to enter certain countries without having to pay import duties would have produced official paperwork as such based on that number, and any sales documents from the factory to a new owner.

    Ferrari never sold 0846, they scrapped it, and probably kept any useful components on the shelf, and then probably sold them on at some stage to people like David Piper.

    I imagine like most factories then occasionally the scrap metal merchant comes along, offers a price and removes the pile, it is then his to do whatever he likes with it.

    As a result Ferrari have no ownership of the scrap metal after that point so have no claim as to the metal remains of 0846 wherever they ended up, so wont be chasing Jim anytime soon to recover it, if in fact any is in the frame of 003.

    You can label an item with whatever number you like, and others can also easily use that same number for their own system.

    When registering a car for road use it has to contain an identifier unique to that countries registration system, it appears Jim decided to call 003 "0846" in New York and as long as they don't have any other car from any other source using that number on their system then thats fine. He could have registered it as "Apollo 11" in New York even if it contained no elements at all of that space ship, and as long as no other vehicle also had that unique identifier on their system then its good to go.

    Would not mean that just because its called Apollo 11 on the New York DMV system that is has anything to do with the original, or that NASA would want a share of it.

    As can be seen above with the Denis Jenkinson take on things, the situation with the claims about Jims 003/0846 is not unique, its been going on since cars were invented.
     
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  3. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
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    Thanks Paul, that's more or less confirm what I have in mind.

    Rgds
     
  4. retired

    retired Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2004
    282
     
  5. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,257
    Also to avoid any confusion, a carnet was a customs document allowing entry of a race car and equipment into a country without having to pay non refundable import duties, its nothing to do with the requirements for entry into a race.

    The problems arose when a car was entered into a race months in advance and then something happened to that car in the interim, if the team wanted to substitute another car instead they would need to obtain yet another carnet which with most red tape took time and then pay another holding fee to customs, far simpler to just swap the numbers from the initial "approved" car car onto a donor in order to get it into the country for the race, and also less hassle from scrutineers when presented for entry.
     
  6. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,772
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    Should I understand here that the "carnet" was delivered by the customs' authorities of the country where the team was established, ie, for Ferrari it came from the italian customs, for Matra from the french, for porsche from the german, etc...or was there any standard version for all teams?

    Rgds
     
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  8. johngtc

    johngtc Formula Junior
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    This quote from Wikipedia might help:

    Jointly administered by the World Customs Organization (WCO) and the International Chamber of Commerce through its World Chambers Federation, the ATA Carnet is an international customs document that permits the tax-free and duty-free temporary export and import of goods for up to one year. The Carnet eliminates the need to purchase temporary import bonds. So long as the goods are re-exported within the allotted time frame, no duties or taxes are due. Failure to re-export all or some of the goods listed on the Carnet results in the payment of applicable duties and taxes. Failure to remit those duties results in a claim from the foreign customs service to the importer's home country.

    Carnets are not specific to vehicles but apply to all types of goods.
     
  9. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
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    John,

    Was it the same in the sixties?

    Rgds
     
  10. johngtc

    johngtc Formula Junior
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    i don't know for sure. But I think that all documentation was from some arm of officialdom, rather than auto related organisations.

    John
     
  11. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
    tewksbury
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    george burgess
    Why don't you tell us something we don't know or if it's not that important don't bother.When you say "he was just a guy racing and selling cars" you really don't get the purpose of F Chat.Please find someplace else to express your opinions. tonga's crew
     
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  13. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    The carnet (Carnet de Passages en Douane) for cars in the UK was issued by the RAC, motoring authority. For vehicles registered in other EU/overseas countries, application should be made to the national motoring authority of that country.
    It was shown at customs when a vehicle entered and left the country if it was not staying here. This was purely a document to avoid taxes having to be paid and then reimbursed. As far as I can tell it has no legal effect on the identity of the vehicle, although it is, of course, a legal document and should be treated as such.
    There is more information here - Carnet de Passage FAQs | Application Form | Driving Information | RAC
    Nathan
     
  14. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
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    Texas!
    Wow, this thread keeps on going, going, going...

    Rob, seriously, you should check with Guinness to see if they track internet threads. I know it was running on the old chat site when I joined in 2003. 13-14 years has got to be a record!
     
  15. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    500
    Interesting question! Paul and others had already provided many valuable insights. Just some minor additions here:

    Manufactures generally use for their products a ‘title’ or a number, what is nothing else but an identification tool mainly needed for internal production purposes and to sell/tax/export/import or move the products. In case of automobiles, such a ‘title’ or number (VIN etc.) serves as well to make a car street legal with all the required documentation. This ‘title’ is usually stamp in the metal of the frame and on a chassis plate (with some other data according to varying national regulations). Works racing cars mainly need such a ‘title’ and number for international exportation/importation from one race to the other (with a ‘carnet de passage’ in the Sixties and often switching numbers in order to facilitate transportation and avoid taxation and other costs. Inside the EC, the importance of the complicated ‘carnet’ is probably decreasing or even invalid today).

    This ‘title’ or number can be granted and - freely - chancelled or changed from the manufacturer until the car is in its proper ownership and not sold. After the car is sold, the ‘title’ is sold with the car and the question arises, if the car’s legitimate owner may fully replace with a non works part a damaged chassis using the same ‘title’ and number (what is denied from Ferrari Classiche upon obvious reasons. However, you can replace your Fiat Panda’s chassis not using a works part. The car is after that replacement still an ‘original Panda’, because the ownership of the car’s ‘title’ includes the right to rebuild and replace a damaged chassis’ when the number correctly gets transferred to the replacement part and the damaged part scrapped and/or its number eliminated or ‘crossed’. The old part lost and the replacement part got the car’s number and its identity).

    In case of 0846, the car was never sold from Ferrari but after some accidents the leftovers scrapped and the very number chancelled from the works in its internal records. This process stopped the existence of the ‘title’ and number 0846. Hence, such a Ferrari car with such a chassis number and identity does not exist anymore. Even if some remains or leftover parts – really – survived as pretended and were ‘unknowingly’ used in David Piper’s newly build car, such a product is simply no Ferrari not to mention a works cars with number 0846. No Estoppel theory may help here.
     
  16. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    #8213 miurasv, Jun 19, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This is a Karl Ludvigsen picture of the real 0846 at Daytona 1967. You can just see that the chassis right front side engine mount is in the same place, nearer the bulkhead, and is the same shape as the other genuine P4s and does not have the bolt on adaptor to mount the engine that the Glickenhaus chassis has.
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  17. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    Cool. So why did Piper modify it?
     
  18. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
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    Lol thats the point Steve is making! Piper didn't modify it, the chassis of the original 0846 it seems is not the one in Jims car, the original chassis was obviously fully converted to P4 spec, totally removing all traces of the mounts for a p3 engine, not the hack job conversion that is in Piper 003.
     
  19. isaydingdong

    isaydingdong Formula Junior

    Apr 18, 2014
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    ny
    Full Name:
    Sy Sperling
    Case closed
     
  20. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    True.

    Exactly like Nathan closed David's years ago with the photo David gave him which proved beyond the shadow of ANY DOUBT that David had no idea about P3 vs P4 chassis and was 180 degrees wrong about the structure of it.

    It's funny that Steve's jumping the shark moment is also 180 degrees wrong.

    Look at the photo of a P4 engine set into the chassis that's in the real 0846 today. Note where the permanently affixed front P4 engine mounts are relative to the engine's Ports. They are clearly between ports 1&2. Note that the P3 engine mounts are exactly as they are on Karl's photo clearly between Ports 3&4.

    Look at the photo of a P4 engine set into the chassis that's in the real 0856 today.

    http://p45c.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/project.pdf

    Note that, unlike in 0846, BOTH the front chassis engine mount and the front P4 engine mount permanently affixed to the P4 chassis and the P4 engine mounts set into the P4 engine, clearly between Ports 1&2, NOT Ports 3&4 are in alignment.

    It's easy to do. The intake ports locate the P4 engine mount EXACTLY.

    Note where the P3 chassis engine mounts line up on the P4 engine in Karl's photo.

    Once again the intake ports locate it EXACTLY.

    Mauro was right. The solution leaving the P3 vestigal engine mounts and reaching FORWARD
    with an added tri angle to exactly where the P4 engine mounts are on a P4 engine between Ports 1&2 NOT Ports 3&4 of course could have been done by Ferrari. As these photo prove that's EXACTLY what happened.

    Karl's photo proves beyond the shadow of any doubt that they were in 1967 at The 24 Hours of Daytona and clearly are in 0846 today.

    Ciao
     
  21. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    Thanks Jim for the correction and clarification!

    How do you know Piper didn't modify it? Piper refuses to speak at all about how he came to be in possession of the chassis in what you call 003, refuses to address the real differences between his supposedly identical 0900 and 003 chassis, refuses to address what he did with the chassis while he owned it. Maybe Piper modified it to fit a P3 engine that he happened to have lying around? Jim has clarified that Steve is actually mistaken in his statements with the photo above, but in general let's not make gross assumptions about what happened to that chassis while in the possession of Piper - Piper needs to answer those mysteries, and until he does we shouldn't and can't assume anything.
     
  22. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 20, 2003
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    In reference to page 66 photo of where chassis engine mounts line up on the P4 engine photo - should any verbiage regarding Ports:
    3&4
    Instead read;
    2&3
    ?


    via Tapatalk
     
  23. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,257
    David Piper does not have to do anything what so ever, he sold the car to Jim as Piper 003, a replica of a p4 based on original components.
     
  24. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    500
    Piper doesn’t have to answer or explain anything. What is confirmed from him (and Ferrari) is enough. And indeed, no assuptions are needed.
     
  25. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    500
    Exactly, and this creation is simply no Ferrari car although having some original components.
     
  26. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Yes in this post and elsewhere.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/144755270-post8216.html


    Good eye.
     
  27. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Many Years Ago David Piper gave Nathan a photo and an explanation to post to Prove that not only did he understand the differences between a P3 Chassis and a P4 Chassis but to also clearly explain how the chassis he sold me came to be.

    David's photo and explanation proved a lot but not what he intended it to just as years later Karl's photo taken of 0846 at Daytona in 67 that another poster posted wrongly believing and stating what he hoped it would prove but instead proving beyond the shadow of any doubt the exact opposite when compared with the photo's on pages 65 and 66 in the previously referenced pdf. proving that the chassis in 0846 at Daytona was a P3 chassis modified exactly as I've been saying for years it was and is the same chassis that is in 0846 today.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143588481-post7034.html
     
  28. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    #8225 miurasv, Jun 20, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Oh dear!!! I was going to explain but for the moment I will let the picture do the talking and ask you a question: Which port is the engine mounting under in the picture attached then, Jim? The pic is of 0856 by the way.
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