The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I have always reported back what both Piper and MF have told me, even if it contradicted what I previously thought. I would never do something like conceal MF's Italian/English letter of the 23rd of February, 2016 like Jim did yet you do not question him about that deception do you????

I am not screaming anything. You say Jim has moved on. Now this really is BS. Have you not seen that he's just taken his DP0003 to the TF 100 years celebration in Italy and had Nino Vaccarella driving it, telling everyone it's 0846 despite MF and Ferrari stating 0846 does not exist any more. It's also just been at the Auto Museum of Turin displayed as 0846 and is going back there in a few weeks time to be displayed again. He's also got details of this all over his FB page. Moved on has he? Yes, ok.

 

If one is really here to search for the truth, maybe it lies with the person they believe built the chassis.

Fair enough. IMO you are pretty cheery with Talacrest/Piper but maybe that is just my opinion.

I think we all know what Foghieri means by 0846 doesn't exist anymore. It means it was written off the books, it is the, it's not a Ferrari point, that LGS continually posts. We don't care about that, we have know that since the beginning. Scrapped off the books but exists in reality are two different things so lets quit wasting time on it doesn't exist because Mauro said Ferrari scrapped it.

If Piper actually built this thing, then he would have many of these answers. Honestly, for an expert, he never really has had many answers that show the breadth of his knowledge.

If he doesn't, it's a lot less grey if it is 0846, IMO.

Do you not find it funny that he doesn't talk about, or seem to know much about, a car he supposedly constructed a chassis for and then built? I wonder why....

 

MF is very emphatic about the number 0846 not existing any more. Because of this, in his mind, the car previously carrying this number, for this reason alone does not exist and if a portion of the front of the frame was part of the Glickenhaus car he still considered it a replica because it has no Ferrari number. The number and its deletion by "madre" Ferrari has massive significance, the extent of which I previously did not comprehend.

 

To them it does. To many of us it is not important. The existence of the frame, not the certificate is what matters to many. I am not at all concerned with it being on the books etc.

Why do we feel that only parts of the front may be 0846?

The rear was originally built as P3 no? The P4 mounts are crudely attached to the P3 mounts that are of original construction to the frame no?

The damage to the rear is pretty consistent with what happened to 0846 in period whereas there is no history of Piper doing similar damage?

Why would anyone just use the front. I think it is pretty obvious that the entire frame was originally built as P3 and it has some repair damage consistent with what happened to 0846 in period.

If the discussion is about Ferrari doesn't give its blessing, then I can't be bothered. If it is did 0846 survive whether stamped 0846 or not, then the truth is worth searching out.

This frame from what I can tell was originally built as a P3 and later converted to house a P4 motor.

Am I wrong?

 

That's putting it politely!

JG has faced so much harassment, so much hounding, and so many suggestions of lying about his cars that he has basically given up on FerrariChat and left for good.

The sad thing is, he is now facing the same harassment, hounding and accusations on the same subject on Pistonheads from miurasv, who seems to have made it his life mission to try to make JG's life a misery!

My advice to JG on PH was to just ignore it all and enjoy his cars for himself - If others have an issue with his cars then that's their problem and he shouldn't lose any sleep over it, life's just too short for that s:censored:t!

 

Surely Jim taking #0846 to the Targa Florio is as much his business as anything anyone does and is certainly less offensive than someone screeching liar and making accusations at regular intervals........
Anyone that disagree's with him doing that would surely choose an appropriate response rather than deciding Jim's actions are a personal attack. And why the anger?
Hows about stating the case and letting it fly or die.
Piper could answer the question of where did I get the chassis and solve much of the debate......

 

So really, practically, Jim's 0846 is a salvage title as far as Ferrari is concerned. You're twisting words with your "MF says it doesn't exist anymore!!!!!" Nonsense - the rest of us seem to understand what that means with regard to Ferrari's log books.

If Ferrari gave one bit of concern about Jim's car being an illegal misrepresented replica, then they would have seized it upon its entering Italy as they do with other replicas. If there were concerns about it being displayed as 0846 with a story, then the TF organizers and Auto Museum of Turin organizers would have checked with Ferrari and rejected the car or at least the display of serial number. Instead, they are all quiet and happy to accept this car for display.

Do you think this is some secret that Jim is pulling over the auto world, and your duty is to shout the "truth" from the rooftops? You're wrong.

Honestly, any and all outstanding questions should be directed to Piper exclusively. He's the only one with the answers. If he won't, can't, share them for whatever reason, then the questions remain unanswered. Hounding Jim is just really, really low class.

I'd suggest two valid reasons for Piper's refusal to cooperate - either there were tax, legal, representations made which were/are not true and he still doesn't want to face the consequences, or he missed that the third frame was rebuilt from 0846's frame rather than being a new replica and he's supremely pissed that it slipped through his fingers.

 

Or third: He is being nice and doesnt want to rain on JG's parade by stating AGAIN that it's a replica chassis with some original parts from his pile. Afterall what does he have to gain? He clearly said what it is and what its not.

Obviously its JG job to pursue that lead how DP003 came to build in the first place, but it seems JG doesnt want to because he got his answers and they didnt fit his story.

 

Well according to Marcels post above, Piper clearly did know about 0846!

The claims being made on this thread that a man who has been racing these cars all over the world since the 60s knows nothing of them is simply ridiculous.

Then to further claim he built up a P4 replica from scratch but did not spot that the frame could run two very different Ferrari engines, both of which he owned, but neither he or his mechanics put two and two together that the only car that was both a P3 and P4 was 0846 is pure fantasy.

He had 0900 sat next to it, do people really believe side by side, no one in the Piper garage spotted the differences in the rear end between the two all those years.

Clearly there is a back story to 003 which goes all the way back to the 60s and 70s and Piper is not letting on what that is, which he has every right to do.

He sold Jim his cast off example, made from bits and bobs he had acquired over the years, he sold it as a replica, the only one that has to prove otherwise is Jim if he wants it be be anything else, which he clearly still does.

Its not about money, it's about opening doors that's all, the Targa trip is an example of that.

There could be another reason why Piper is so emphatic about 003 not being 0846, and that is because he knows exactly where the remains of the original 0846 chassis is, and he has done since it was last seen by Marcel in Switzerland!

Lots of these cars trade and find new owners behind closed doors, and never see the light of day.

 

I am not twisting MF's words at all. He said: "I hope that nobody can define in future the Mr Glickenhaus P4 with the 0846, this number do not exist anymore for every Ferrari expert."

After looking at the pictures of the chassis, which he had not seen when he wrote the February and March letters to JG, and he had not thoroughly examined the chassis as JG said, MF said the JG car is not the one he took to Daytona for testing. 0846 was the lone car that was taken by MF and his team to Daytona for testing, therefore JG's car is not 0846. It's not the chassis MF modified. It's not the famous P3. It's not the number 23 car and it's not the Daytona winner.

 

Best find the message board that Nino Vaccarella and the curator of the Auto Museum of Turin post on and fill them in lest they become liars, too ...?

 

I imagine they have only been told the parts of the tale that suit the cause, no doubt they simply like the actual car they have viewed/driven, no one disputes its a fantastic car.

 

Absolutely, most fantastic car made of a fantastic mix of Ferrari parts but no Ferrari works car as the works itself and Mauro Forghieri confirms in writing and all this has nothing to with Vaccarella, Targa Florio, Massini sitting in the car or a Museum in Torino. Italy likes the show and Sicily is very grateful for any spectacle and publicity, but all that has just nothing to do with the fact, that the car is DP0003 and no Ferrari.

 

... and I am even confident that it will be soon displayed in the Vatican and we can all trust, that the Pope is no liar ...

 

Perfectly possible but David Piper doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. He has had a lifetime of extraordinary achievements which are largely self made. Anyone who has taken the time to explore this, and there are plenty of avenues available. can easily see that David Piper has a very important place in the history of motor racing and Ferrari.Do the home work. It will reveal a life time of dedication,achievements,trials and tribulations, controversy and so much more.Just remember the unique one on one "secret" meeting with Enzo Ferrari and the remaining factory P 3/4 machines. To say David Piper is one of a kind is an understatement.There is plenty to learn out there. Some day a biography will be written but probably not in his life time.There is a listing in Mitorosso.com-Ferraari Online Magazine of 116 major racing events he participated in from August 6 1961 to January 1, 1970 and these were all with Ferrari equipment mostly owned by him . Of course his racing career started in the early 1950s and in 1955 with his Lotus 6 powered by a supercharged MG engine won Eire's Leinster Trophy race. Doug Nye's article "David Piper, In Tune with Ferraris" in Cavallino July/ August 1979 is a good place to start and there is plenty more out there.Just find it. You will then start to understand this person. Enjoy; tonga's crew

 

Who is afraid of what? Certainly not David Piper, who was an 'acteure' in period is no 'poseur' today and has certainly nothing to unearth, explain or prove. And he is not keeping his mouth shut but clearly said in writing what he had and sold. But yes, this car will certainly have a story as the best marketed replica ever.

 

One man's replica is another man's surviving piece of sports car racing history.

Certificate or not.

You care about the blessing. Many of us don't.

If it survived, it survived. Whether Ferrari or some club cares to acknowledge that it did.

You can get official as you want. We would rather know the reality.

 

Please read my post again..slowly. there is a huge amount of liability tied to this car. Let's keep that in mind.

 

David Piper clearly said in writing that he sold a replica P4.

Looks Like The Pope may want to let 0846 into the Vatican, cause Piper seems to know a lot less about these cars than "the Expert" people claim him to be.

Please tell me how a car built as a P3 sits in front of us. At the very least the rear mounts originated as P3 and were "crudely" added on to, to house P4.

Piper has no clue of how this frame was built because he didn't build it. At the very least he would have a story of how the P4 Modification came about, or how he originally built it to P3.

Till Piper can come up with half a tale of how he built something, that by your definition, he doesn't know what it is, then there is no reason to believe this is not 0846 and many of us do believe for many logical reasons that it is. People weren't just having two frames built by some P4 chassis builder back then, rolling across town to the other guy building P3 frames.

Say whatever you want. Miura can bring up as many loose ends as he wants.

But until the easily explained is explained, the logic for many of us clearly points to someone had to build this frame, and it wasn't Piper.

Process of elimination gets pretty small from there.

With Pipers silence, the only real question left for me would be, is 0846 a 66 or a 67? You know, when Ferrari crossed it off the books and all.

 

Please can you explain why there is a huge amount of liability tied to this car? Thanks.

Regards,

Steve.

 

Hmmm, he's not the greatest person to ever walk this planet. Lets keep things in perspective.

Yes he was a good driver but he was/is very much a wheeler dealer ...
Pete

 

Yeah? he's being nice?

He stated it's a P4.

It is clearly built from a P3.

Explain that.

 

Given his inability to answer questions put to him about the differences between certain P cars and given the mediocre job he and his team did on 0858, the title 'expert' is a tad rich.

 

You are correct, but that is just one part of his story. When one has to resort to"he's not the greatest person to walk the planet" this, if taken literally, is nothing more than completely absurd statement. If you are prepared to define and describe this statement in detail please do so. Before you undertake this task it seems you have a lot of "homework"to do. So go for it and then, if you must, reply. tonga's crew

 

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