The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Rob...Forgive my sense of humour..... I did read all but I quoted what was really relevant and I'm sure you understood. Ferrari Chat is a fun and informative forum where most respect each other......This guy breaks all the rules. However let me re phrase ........As mistakes go it was a good one...

 

You need to go read the entire thread, again.
At about the same time, of the "0900" frame order, the remains of 0846, destined for scrap, became available.

The order for the 0900 frames "one, per Enzo", turned into "three per David" from the P4 blueprints (also, per David).

The curious thing is the Piper ended up with three identical black painted frames, among them, was one, that could not have been built from blueprints. The P3.

This would imply, though no one really knows, that somewhere in Modena, the scrap comingled with the new frame order to Piper.

You can decide to accept this theorum, or not accept this theorum, but everything Napolis has freely shared with us, discussions with Tom Meade (deceased), discussions with Gerald Roush (deceased), and "things Enzo said" (deceased) is all YOUR business.

Digging through spec sheets, published books, and all of your quoted documentation is "on paper"....as Jim has repaeatedly said, and shared, "let's look at the metal"....

What is in it, for you, this continual badgering of Mr. G?

He has moved on, restored a matching 412P, and is racing at the Nurburgring...
Let it go.....

 

Maybe because it's HIS business?

Actually I disagree, as he has openly has shared the facts he has found, and YOU seem to be self appointed as some kind of high Judge of some sort, whining "but what about.....xxxxx"?

Jim has tired of it, we have all tired of it.
He's gone on....as should you.

 

I was glad at first to see that Steve was back. I always enjoyed his comments outside outside of this thread, and I assumed the break form Fchat would mellow his approach to discussing this topic. I don't know enough to have an opinion whether there is any validity to his concerns about 0846, but not everybody needs to answer every question that is posed to them on a public forum (particularly if that person thinks the question has already been answered). To me, if the tone and approach of someone's comments wouldn't be acceptable in a real-world conversation, it doesn't belong on a forum either. This sounds like I want him rebanned, which isn't really the case. What I would really like is for him to drop his obsession with this topic and continue contributing to the rest of vintage where I think he has a lot to add. Kudos to Fchat admins for trying to do the right thing.

 

I am happy that Steve is back. Amongst many of the knowledgeable ones 0846 is not accepted as fact for multiple reasons.

 

+1

 

Surely this thread has finally run its course now, Jim has laid his beliefs out, Steve as an interested observer has countered some of this with alternative information and evidence and the thread readers can judge the merits of both sides and come to their own conclusions as to what the actually car is, not thats its any of our business really.

This car exists, Jim owns it and can call it what he likes, the rest of us are just interested bystanders. It only potentially becomes an issue if the car were ever sold, which Jim as said he never has any plans to do.

 

Stroll's car is the benchmark. I think 0846 would fetch more than any 412P, but less than Stroll's P4.

 

You gotta be kidding. All other 412Ps & the P4s have continuous and undisputed history (save for a supposed # switch in period lol). Some have been hit in period and later but they have all been quite well preserved for racing car standards and are therefore far more valueable.

 

How could it with 8000 plus posts, a quarter of those questioning it? IMO this car will always be judged differently. Not to say it wouldn't command a hefty price but I don't think it will be looked at the same way other cars are that have a rock solid provenance.

In short it's not a fair test for this car, dollars don't matter .

 

0858 seemed to fair ok price wise despite the negativity of its re conversion back from Can Am spec, but again its provenance is well known and not disputed.

I imagine there are quite a few wealthy collectors who would bite Jims hand off if it does ever come up for sale.

 

What did 0858 end up selling for?

 

I do not need to read the thread again at all. You have your dates all wrong and back to front. The 0900 frame order by Piper to Enzo Ferrari was a number of years after the remains of 0846 had already been scrapped in 1967 after Le Mans. There is no evidence in the slightest that the remains of chassis 0846 became available. Ferrari have confirmed in writing they did not sell chassis 0846, stating they definitively scrapped it.

P4 blueprints could easily have been used to make a chassis to fit a P3 engine that we know Piper had. He most certainly would not have had 3 P4 engines. The tubing for the engine mountings would have been made substituting dimensions to suit the coordinates of the P3 engine mounting points. Simple!

The discussions you mention with the deceased, some of which there is no proof ever took place, prove nothing. Therefore, Tex, I do not accept your theory.

My digging through on paper spec sheets has proved Jim Glickenhaus's much publicised on paper evidence, such as in his 0846 pdf stating P3 wheelbase lengths of 2412mm, and the way the engine mountings were executed, to be totally inaccurate. Regarding Jim saying "Let's look at the metal", I did look at the metal and my findings proved correct. The engine mountings, the "metal" as he calls it, prove Jim's chassis is not 0846.

Ing. Forghieri, the man who designed 0846, oversaw its build and its modification from P3 to P3/4, in his email to me after looking at Jim's pictures of the engine mountings said: "Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount."

In his unauthenticated "polite" email to Jim he further confirmed he and his Racing Department did not carry out the modifications to Jim's chassis. He absolutely did not say, as Jim said, that "the modification of the chassis with vestigial mounts etc." "of course" could have been done by Ferrari." What MF said is below:

"I cannot of course rule out that thos modifications have been carried out elsewhere, perhaps even by another Ferrari departement." Therefore Mauro Forghieri and his Racing Department did not carry out the modifications. As it was most definitely Ing. Forghieri and his Racing Dep't that carried out the mods to the original 0846 this is further proof Jim's chassis is NOT 0846.

Had the modifications on Jim's chassis been used on the real 0846 I have no doubt that the bolted on add ons would have ended up in the infamous Museum of Errors, "Il museu degli errori", that told of the losses.

There's nothing in it for me, Tex other trying to see that Ferrari History does not get distorted.

Jim most certainly has not moved on. He is still making and publishing videos claiming his chassis is the original 0846 stating misinformation, not limited to, saying that Ferrari scrapped the car because it couldn't be repaired in time for the last race. The chassis was actually scrapped due to its history of previous accidents and fire damage suffered as Ferrari put in writing to Jim.

See this recent video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS95o-QwrYw

The car does however look great, 0854 is fantastic and I wish Jim well at the Nurburgring.

 

So, you're again accusing James Glickenhaus of fraud.


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I put him on ignore a long time ago--over this very issue. Glad I did. He just ignores the mountain of evidence that Napolis has presented with trite little points.

 

As usual, you get right to the heart of the matter. I'd consider un-ignoring him if he would just come out and say it.




On second thought . . . naah. He stays in ignore.

 

I recall enjoying this read a while back and it seems to have life again. Mr. Miura I have to ask what is your specific experience with what a large company means when they say that something has been scrapped? I worked for a fortune 100 (I think) aerospace firm in California for 22 years and I know full well that when something was called scrap that meant that it was moved to the extra land that was not directly producing income. It was still there! Right over there but it was scrap, not to fly again. That in no way stopped it from being used by a resourceful department or person(s). It just meant that the original contract or purpose it was intended for was not to be mentioned again and the paper trail to its intended purpose and life was terminated for all eternity....except to those who knew how to get things done!

You loose me when you lean on the word scrap meaning that something has disappeared from the face of the Earth. It just isn't so in my experience. Good metal has a way to make itself useful, especially when partnered with good intentions.

 

In the case of 0846, the provable whereabouts end in the scrap yard. Even Jim has back tracked after telling us for years differing stories including how the original chassis maker took the damaged, burned and languished chassis of 0846 from the scrap yard to save work when commissioned by Piper to make him a replica P4 chassis morphing into Enzo Ferrari selling Tom Meade the chassis allegedly backed up by the death statement of TM blah blah blah. Jim now says Piper bought a P3 chassis from Ferrari and as 0846 was the only missing chassis that's where and how it came to David. See below:

What Paul Macca actually said in 2003 is below. He refers to a P3 or a P4 chassis. Note well his statement about Piper having a P3 engine too:

Regardless of what happened to the real 0846 chassis, whether destroyed by being melted down, broken up, buried, still in the scrap yard or made in to something else such as a show car like 250 P5, Jim's chassis "in the metal" with the wheelbase length of 2412mm (P3 correct = 2400mm) with a P3 engine installed and its bolted on offset P4 engine mountings prove it is not 0846 as per Ing. Forghieri. The rear part of the tipo 593/603 chassis of the real P3/P4 0846 was transformed and identical to a tipo 603 P4 to properly take advantage of the strengthened P4 ribbed engine block reinforcing the chassis structure. The P3 (tipo 593) engine mount tubing was removed and replaced with (tipo 603) P4. Jims chassis remains tipo 593 P3 with bolt on adaptors to fit a P4, or rather 312 F1 engine which actually compromises the strength of the structure.

 

I'd like to know why he was allowed back in the first place, his profile still amounts to nothing more than a job advertisement and I cannot find any evidence of any contributions to this forum barring this topic.

 

Why are people attacking 'miurasv', is it because he posts inconvenient facts?

 

My profile has nothing to do with any facts I present. I have made many more contributions to the forum on different topics.

 

It's all about his attitude. He acts like he's opposing counsel in a courtroom and appears to believe he can get away with badgering the witness. He may have some intelligent points worth discussing but has approached this time and time again in the wrong manner. Several of his accusations border on actionable statements and I suspect it would probably end very badly for him.

>8^)
ER

 

Each of us has our own perspectives and in the case of #0846 we all take personal paths to conclusions regarding the provenance. Most will involve an internal sense of whether to believe the hype or not. I believe Jim's evidence points to the possibility that his chassis really is #0846 and for that I personally am slightly skeptical but happy to respect his claims and the romantic in me loves the idea of it being the real #0846. Also to the point i don't feel for one minute that Jim should care one way or another whether I believe it's #0846 or not and I respect that. I would do the same if I owned her.

Considering there are few (none?) people still with us today that have any relevant ability to state the car is #0846 or not we may never know. However if we take the highest burden of proof of provenance then half of the exhibits in every museum would have to be labelled fake because after all we cannot absolutely prove the Mona Lisa is real, Leonardo isn't here to confirm it is his work...........

I would be interested to know what burden of proof you are putting on this Steve, are you saying that Jim needs to prove to you that he has the remains of #0846? And what proof would he need to get you to change your mind?