The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I believe this was built on a Lotus chassis and has a V8 engine. Sort of a Can Am knockoff.tongascrew

 

A good place for Tom's Thomassima II... since he personally saved Jim's car from the scrap heap with the help of his inside man, Enzo. The Thomassima II is the car that bonded Tom and Enzo. It would be great to see it parked next to 0846 and the P4/5 at the show Jim.

 

Fantastic!
Miki-Paki, are those all AMR(Annecy Miniatures)?

 

I was talking about the real, one off, full sized replica P4 car as shown in the picture.Not a miniature model.tongascrew

 

Perhaps there is a "screw" loose?

 

Yes!
Best. Miki-Paki.

 

Very nice




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Just to clear the air, Tom's Thomassima II was built on a modified Cooper F1 Chassis that he rescued from yet another scrap heap. I meant to say modified under Tom's supervision for 2 seats.

 

If you are referring to me you are right.I am getting treatment. Things are getting better. I appreciate your patience and understanding. tongascrew

 

Yes there is. See post 8600.I have found the right tool and the screw is being tightened.We appreciate your understanding. tongascrew

 

A great lunch with Ed Niles, Larry Crane and Murray Cogan, all Ferrari blood. I brought up the 0846 to to Larry in conversation. Guess what? Tom told him that chassis was sitting around the shop for years... Just like I stated in Tom's deathbed statement. This thread is done is far as legality or reason goes. Must be just for fun now.

 

Interestingly I just found an email from Forghieri dated Jan 25, 2005 6:58 AM where he stated in answer to the questions regarding 1967 Ferrari 330 P 3/4 Chassis 0846:

Q

"The first is the body style. From my research I have the opinion that chassis number 0846 was a 1966 330 P3 with the rear body section of the 1967 330 P4. The chassis and the rest of the bodywork is from the 330 P3 style."

A

Yes the modification was done outside the factory.

Q

What was the official Ferrari model number for this car in 1967? Was this car called a 330 P 3/4, 330 P3/4S or a 330 P4?

A

From our side the car was a bastard 330 P 3/4.

Best regards
Mauro Forghieri


"Yes the modification was done outside the factory."

 

Rare Packards grab spotlight at Greenwich Concours Americana | Autoweek

 

Thanks for the link Jim,........how was the drive?

Nice to see your car (0846) with the variety of American iron.

The saga of 0846 is auto-archaeology at it's finest!

~Ciao and best!

 

It is really wonderful to drive on the road. A real time machine.

 

Here is a scanned copy of the actual Official Ferrari Notiziario Technical Data Sheet/Document for the 330 P3 issued by the Ferrari Factory at the 330 P3 Press Conference in early February, 1966. It states the wheelbase (PASSO) for the 330 P3 in Berlinetta and Spyder (0846 was the only Spyder P3) form was 2400 mm which proves Jim is wrong about the Technical Data Sheet stating the wheelbase for the P3 as being 2412mm. Jim's chassis when using its mountings for and with a P3/412P engine has a wheelbase of 2412mm.
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Asked and answered a long time ago.

"Ferrari" Doug Nye Hans Tanner Six addition Page 408 wheelbase
decreased P3 2412 vs P4 2400mm.

The reason remains the same verifiable fact.

You cannot fit a P4 engine into a P3 Chassis without moving the rear chassis mount forward 12mm as the front mounts are flush with the bulkhead.

A P4 Block from the front mounts that abut the bulkhead to the rear chassis mount is 12MM shorter than a P3 Block measured from the same fixed points.

The photo that David gave Nathan years ago, referenced several times in the thread proved that beyond the shadow of any doubt.

 

Nathan

I apologize for not having responded to your post about Wayne S earlier but I was away from the board for a while and didn't notice it until recently.

Gerald was there. You weren't. Many others were and clearly heard exactly what Wayne said and Gerald clearly stated in writing what he heard even though as you know he wasn't very fond of me.

Wayne very clearly realized that 0856 was the car he did BODYWORK on at Daytona and that at the time of FCA Concours it was a spyder.

Wayne also very clearly stated,pointing to the chassis tube of my car in front of Gerald and others, that he had repaired this original chassis tube after Nino crashed 0846 in 1967 at the Targa Florio. Gerald asked him who made this repair, the repair he was pointing to and he clearly said "I did." I witnessed this and others did as well. He went into great detail about welding and told us that Italy did not have nor was aware of the latest welding techniques and machines available in the US and when he showed them to MF, MF asked him to source the latest machine and come to the factory with it and show them how to use it which he did. He pointed to the longest damaged tube and clearly said that he had made that specific repair by cutting the damaged tube, sleeving the damaged tube and welding the tube and the inserted sleeve with a full penetration weld. He was very clear that he had made the repair in 1967 that was clearly visible when he inspected the car at the FCA Concours. I agree that he likely did it when he went to the Factory with his new welding equipment although he did also clearly state at that time when questioned by Gerald that he had gone to the Targa Florio once. Paul Macca's first post where he states that David told him that after he built 0900 he bought a P3 chassis from Ferrari is interesting. I agree with Paul's conclusion that as 0846 was the only missing P3 chassis that's where and how it came to David.

 

Please tell me that we are NOT starting up this load of bollocks once again.......

 

I thought Steve was permabanned but some how he's back. A new poster "Ferrariseller " in the middle of the P5 thread seems to have morphed into Steve. Either way answering the same "load of bollocks" as you point out isn't something that I'm going to do over and over so once again Ferrariseller/Steve goes on ignore. Should anyone think there's anything that needs answering let me know.

As an aside MM has clearly in writing referred to 0846, as it exists today, as "resurrected" which I still feel is the best summary of what 0846 is and isn't today.

Best

 

The question regarding your statement in many places, including your letter to Cavallino, (see below), that the Technical Data Sheet states the P3 wheelbase was 2412mm has been asked but you have never answered it, including now. My above post referred only to what the Technical Data Sheet actually states which does not agree with what you say it states. The point of my post has been sidetracked.

Your following statement from your post above is also completely and totally wrong with you misquoting it: "Ferrari" Doug Nye Hans Tanner Six addition Page 408 wheelbase decreased P3 2412 vs P4 2400mm."

Page 408 of the book you refer to above does not state at all that the wheelbase decreased P3 2412mm vs P4 2400mm. What page 408 does state is that the wheelbase was decreased from P3 to P4 by one inch (which =25.4mm not 12 mm) to 93.5 inches (= 2374.9mm). Now this obviously means page 408 is saying that the P3 wheelbase was 94.5 inches = 2400.3 mm, extremely close to the 2400mm stated in the Press Conference Technical Data Sheet, and not 2412mm as you say. The 94.5" figure is also the nearest figure in inches to 2400mm when using decimal figures to 1 place (eg as in the .5 in 94.5"). Please note that 0.3 mm = 1/64th of an inch which is minute. 12 mm = 15/32 of an inch, just under half an inch.

There are errors in the book you refer to regarding wheelbases though the rounded up/down figure, 94.5" = 2400mm, to zero decimal places in mm for the P3 is correct. In Appendix 4C the above figures for P3 and P4 are repeated. The correct wheelbase figure for both = 2400 mm, as per Ing. Forghieri.

P4 is quoted as 93.5" = 2374.9mm. Correct figure is 2400mm.

250 GTO wheelbase is quoted as 8' 6.2" which is 2595.88 mm whereas the correct wheelbase = 2400mm.

330 P and 250 LM are quoted as 7' 11" which is 2413mm. Correct figure = 2400 mm.

Yes, you are correct. You cannot fit a P4 engine in a P3 chassis due to the differing mounting points of the P4 engine. That is why the tubes at the rear originating from the bulkhead/firewall back were replaced on the real 0846 in order that correctly positioned mounting points were in place (not offset by using bolt on adaptors that wrongly distribute stresses and loads as in your chassis) to take advantage of the added rigidity that the strengthened, ribbed P4 block brought to the whole structure.
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There are a number of questions, which are not a "load of bollocks" that I have asked you, that have not been asked by anyone previously, that you have not answered.

Here's a fresh one: Where has Marcel Massini clearly in writing referred to 0846, as it exists today, as "resurrected"? I am not saying he hasn't said it, only that I have not seen it. Perhaps Marcel himself could clarify?

 

"I am not saying he hasn't said it, only that I have not seen it. Perhaps Marcel himself could clarify?"



Once again it's in the tread and what YOU are saying about Marcel and Keith speaks for itself.



You said this. This is fact? They said this or is it more of your "bollocks"?




"Marcel Massini and Keith Bluemel have only stated 0846 has attended certain concours because you claim that you have legally registered it at the US DMV as the number 0846."




Doug Nye clearly stated P3 to P4 wheelbase was decreased.




This is fact.




Your calling his one inch a rounding error speaks for itself.




Even your BFF admits some P3/412P wheelbases were 2412mm and P4 wheelbases were 2400mm even though he stated 0854 has a 603R gearbox which it doesn't it has a 603.




Your following statement Is laughable.




"Only the P3/412P and 412P cars 0844, 0848, 0850 and 0854 ever had a wheelbase of 2412mm and this was when the ZF 5DS gearbox was installed in them, not the tipo 593 and tipo 603R Ferrari gearboxes."




ZF INTERNALS were used in some P3 593 Gearboxs. The cases weren't BECAUSE THEY ARE 2.5 INCHES LONGER FROM FRONT FLANGE TO CENTER OF OUTPUT SHAFT THAN 593 GEARBOXS AND IF THEY HAD BEEN USED WOULD HAVE PUSHED THE WHEELBASE TO 2450.8MM.




All of the P3 chassis were made in 66. All are dimensionally exactly the same. 0854 has a P3 chassis, a P3 engine block and a P4 gearbox. It has an 2412mm wheelbase.



Responding to you serves no purpose as the above clearly demonstrates.



Should anyone wish to contact me about this use the links in my signature as I don't accept at PM's.



Over and Out