The new consolidated 308 lowering & suspension upgrade consensus thread

Not sure if this is covered in any of the threads you read, however, the steel bushing sleeves from the "outgoing" bushings need to be transplanted into the new "incoming" Energy Suspension poly bushings. This tidbit may be buried in one of those older threads and if it is, I missed it and now paying for it. The ID of the metal bushing sleeve in the Energy Suspension bushings is just slightly too big and allows the 12mm bolt a little too much room to play. I'm getting my control arm bushings re-sleeved (now) to fix the issue. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143803685-post19.html

As far as spring rates, I went with 400 front and 350 rear.

Also, there are teflon thrust washers in the sandwich of washers mounting your rear hubs to the rear control arms. These are wear parts and should probably be replaced while you are in there. Reference: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/141991339-post17.html

 

What exactly are you trying to achieve?


Are you planning on tracking the car extensively or is it a street 99.9% of the time?


I mentioned in a previous thread that a friend rebuilt his 85 - pure stock. Nothing fancy, just nice factory spec bushings shocks, etc. It is unbelievable. I drove it out of the shop in Atlanta and about a 1/3 of the way to Birmingham and was so impressed I changed my mind forever on "upgrades". My 84 QV has over 116,000 and feels it. Even my shocks are still original so I had an excellent comparison. His car felt like it was brand new and unless you have driven a 308 off the showroom, few of us 30 years later have any idea what that feels like. BIG difference. Huge.

For a car that is just used on the street, It doesn't make that much sense to me to lose a fairly good ride for a faster corner. What I mean is, are you unhappy with the cornering limits now and want to gain more - at the expense of feeling like you are on a floor jack for the rest of the drive? Just how much faster do you need to turn in your neighborhood? Think about that for a moment. You can improve just that with a different tire.

There is no right or wrong here. It is your car and whatever you feel is right for you is, well, the right answer.

I think you would get exactly what you want by simply rebuilding it all with stock bushings, springs and shocks and getting the best tire money can buy.

(remember I am not telling you what you should do - I am only offering something to think about before you pull the trigger)

 

I too have been thinking about this. One point is that a GTS would probably need slightly lower spring rates than a GTB - let's face it, these things weren't very rigid even for the day, let alone without the roof to stiffen the chassis.

I want to lower mine ever so slightly for aesthetic reasons, and I would feel happier with a slightly stiffer setup to lessen the risk of bottoming out. Therefore I'm considering both springs and shocks, as the Konis aren't height adjustable, and a rebuild costs more than a QA-1. I don't intend to ever track the car, but the bushes are due, and the rack, so "while I'm in there..."

I shall follow this thread with interest.

 

I fully agree with Tommy. You said you'll never track the car, so then forget the whole thing !

I had the suspension completely rebuild (that is all new standard/original bushings/silent blocks) and the standard shocks overhauled a year after I bought the car. And as Tommy said: the difference was huge. Then I changed the stock shocks for fully adjustable ones (bump/rebound/ride hight). That gives a more responsive, less understeering car, what is an advantage/more fun on an occasional trackday. "On the street" this is sort of completely useless/pointless when you don't have a "racing attitude" . I can fiddle around endlessly with the shock settings, the effects on your "usual drive-for-fun" route are marginal if you like to take into account most of the traffic rules, and the well beïng you your fellow road users. Rebuilt stock shocks with a slightly stiffer spring rate will do just fine.

"Marginal" is what counts on the track. I have some 8 years of very frequent and competitive racing experience (Alfa Romeo 105 series), tried a million (could be a few less though) different spring rates/shocks/settings/sway bars and relevant gain is quite a road to take. It all is connected to type of tire, weight balance, car weight, swaybars, brakes, car balance on extremely hard breaking, driver preference and, last but not least, driving (ehh... racing) skills.

So if it's just about the stance/looks (in which I agree), make sure all the standard silent blocks/suspension bushings are fine. Have the shocks rebuilt and fit some slightly stiffer, shorter springs. And 16"instead of 14"will make a huge improvement regarding handling. If you want really low, check the length of the "stroke" the standard shocks can make. Lowering too much can make the shock "bottom out" and ruin the valves. Also keep in mind exessive lowering means getting your roll centre "underground" (the A-arms point "up": I mean the side connected to the body is lower than the side that is connected to the wheel hub), which means you create "roll" in the nose resulting in "tilting" (don't know how to translate) cornering and understeer. Quite annoying. Then you have to thicken the sway bars. Which influences shocks and springs. If again you want this all sorted out then there is that rabbit hole.. And, as said, all of it is sort of pointless for the (no offence !!) "medium skilled-i'm taking my 308 out for a ride because the weather is nice" tours ! If you want to benefit from serious upgrading of a car's handling, and the circumstances on the public road allow it, first take some "advanced driving" lessons, and/or follow a course that educates for a racing license (touring cars). If you want to benefit from a "high-tech" suspension you better know how to enjoy it AND how to sort things out when you have bitten off some more than you could chew, in that particular corner.. ;-)

 

All good points, Emile. I have a Lotus Elan to get my racing jollies, and it would take a very highly modified 308 to even come near it in performance, so I'm not chasing the ultimate set up for the track - it shall remain a road car. But it is seriously due for shocks and bushes, and while I'm in there, I want to make a few small changes, as I am certain that it is handling below par. Apart from wanting to drop the stance a little, I would leave it as standard (except for a faster rack, which shall go in at the same time). In its current state, on a winding mountain road, I feel far safer in my Toyota Yaris (and almost as fast).

 

+1. Excessive lowering you would be loosing chamber gain and increasing the roll moment defeating the original purpose of lowering it in the first place. For a 308 street car dropped an inch or so shouldn't be a problem coupled with higher rate springs.

Easiest way to drop the car is to have shorter tires like the michelotto gr4 cars. Minimal geometry changes in the suspension and tighter gearing. But nearly everyone upgrade to much larger tire on there street 308s mostly due to availability. Ferrari slams the F40 and gto but they have lowering alternate pick up points.

It's fashionable to upgrade to QA1's here on Fchat. Personally I wouldn't bother. Re-valve the konis and add adjustable spring platforms that's unless you like the looks of the shinny bits.

Anything you do to significantly stiffen the suspension up on a pathetically weak Gts chassis without reinforcement or a cage with turn the whole car into a spring. Ferrari recognized this 35 years ago and equipped Gts with softer spring rates. It's not uncommon for targas and convertible to loose half the torsional stiffness from the hardtop equivalent. I wouldnt double the spring rates for instances on a Gts without a cage.

My 2cents.

Ps going on 30 years with my 105 track car .

 

I've had some great ding dongs on the track with the Alfa mafia!

 

Unless they've been rebuilt already the bushings on these cars are trashed. The difference after a rebuild is night and day.

 

I did everything you mention in the initial post with the exception of the control arm bushings. I went with the QA1, the Eibachs, the Unobtanium parts, and I threw in a set of HEL braided steel brake lines while I was there. Finally, I had a really good alignment shop put a sporting alignment on the car. I just wrapped this all up last week.

Results: Startlingly great.

Honestly, when I bought this car last summer (84 GTS QV--55k miles) I was kind of disappointed with it. The handling just wasn't really anything to write home about. I drive an E36 M3 most days and my impression was that the M3 was hands down the better handling car.

The car has been transformed. The steering input is light and precise, the car goes where you point it without drama, and I'm still looking for the limits which appear to have improved so vastly that I am having trouble finding them on my normal roads. I do own a dedicated SCCA racing car, so I really don't have much need for another track car, but the QV is so nice now that I am looking forward to getting to a FCA track day if I can.

I am blanking on the spring selection I made, but it was more toward the stiff side of the recommended range. I'll post the exact spring specs later. I live in Baltimore, which has roads that very similar to those in Afghanistan after a harsh winter. The car is stiff, but not really harsh. Going to a stiffer control arm bushing may make it worse, but I doubt it.

All told, I'm a believer. And what's the worst that happens? You hate it, have your Konis rebuilt, and sell the whole QA1 setup on eBay for a $200 loss. My guess, though, is that you are going to be happy. I don't recall anyone posting about how they regretted the decision later, do you?

 

OP thanks for this post. I'll soon be driving an 85 with a new suspension, and I'm looking forward to it. Mine will have the superformance larger anti-roll bars, and was supposed to have the superformance fast ratio steering rack but their current batch of kits was machined wrong. Anyway will make final decision on steering rack and shocks after getting some miles on her.

 

replace bushings....huge difference

 

IMO go with the stock Konis or Wilburs (made in Germany, plug and play) if you want to adjust the height.

I've called a lot of suspension companies and every single one of them cringes when I mention QA's. I'm either going with Wilburs or MCS.

 

They cringe because the QA1 set-up work at a level that is very acceptable for 99% of drivers at a fraction of the cost of the high-end stuff. Again, how may F-Chatters have reported negative results with the QA1 product?

[Edit] I've been searching some old threads looking for complaints about QA1s. I didn't really turn up anything in the way of complaints. The knock on them seems to be that they are not as pure awesome as remote reservoir Penske or Ohlin shocks. That's fair enough. And I suppose that if you are developing the ultimate 308 you might want to go in that direction. The one caveat being that you need to be prepared to spend 4 times the money, or more. But when you get to that point, I really have to ask about whether you are driving the right car for your purposes.

My bottom line on this is that QA1 is probably the best set-up you can get for ~$1,200 and will serve most drivers extremely well. If you have $10k to spend and have a taste for the very best racing suspension on the planet, go for it.

 

I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm just reporting what I've been told. I know QA's rule the roost here but it doesn't hurt to hear opposing opinions once in awhile.

They say it is an economy shock originally developed as a disposable short track solution. I understand that they have a vested interest in selling other packages but I have a good friend who's been in the racing business for many years and I trust his guidance.

For not much more money the Wilburs are a better solution and a higher quality product. Track down Sherpa23 and ask him about them.

 

Alex, I don't know if you got the email I sent you with attachment but in case you didn't get the VariShock instead, design by and engineered by the same person who designed the QA-1 shocks except the Varishoch is/are much robust and better designed. It has 16 settings on the dial knob and the shock body is larger. MikeC wrote a long thread and did a comparison between the two. Here's the link: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/technical-q-sponsored-algar-ferrari/39712-suspension-brake-upgrade-time.html and as for the springs, I went with 350 front a 300 rear Eibach Also, VariShock has the their own eye shock that is similar to Verells paper weight.
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And here's what t looks like put together, I just have to transfer the eurythane bushings from the old eye shock. Here's the link for the VariShock:http://www.cachassisworks.com/Attachments/Catalogs/VAS_BUILDER.pdf
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+1

set of penskes on my race car are $6000. you are supposed to rebuild and calibrate them every 6 months weather you drive on them or not. they not the most practical things for a road car. you may be able to re-valve or put heavy oil in the koni's for 1200$?

 

I study these threads with great interest.

The suspension system on my ’83 GTS QV is tired and sooner or later I will need to undertake a suspension renovation project. For the longest time, I thought I would go with the famous QA1s, but recently I am seriously considering just having my stock Konis rebuilt.

The reason is that my only two issues with my (albeit tired) stock suspension are the degree of body roll and what I experience as understeer. My preference would be to use stiffer adjustable sway bars rather than stiffer springs. I just want to reduce body roll and understeer without affecting overall suspension stiffness. I am okay with the straight-line ride quality.

Currently, I inflate my rear tires about 3 psi higher (36 vs 33 psi) than the front to dial out that understeer and it would be nice to be able to drop the rear pressure back down to 33 psi to get the whole rear tire tread section back on the road again. Any comments or thoughts about sway bars? Is it just that nothing is available? Am I just dreaming?

If swaybars are an impossibility and I had to do springs, I guess might consider lowering the car a couple of centimeters.

 

In my experience ramping up the springs 15-20% (which is bearable) won't make the car ride as harsh as ramping up the dampers the same amount. Dampers seems to have a greater effect on ride.

Higher rate springs will help counteract roll as well as dive. I hear the Gts rear bars are thicker than the Gtb bars for the guys with a coupe to kill some of the under steer.

 

Fascinated by this thread....



PDG

 

This is a good read. Hadn't found it before. Thanks for posting.

(Discouraging to read of yet more sway bar fit problems.)

 

Yes, it's very interesting, I actually learned a lot from that thread.

 

The QA-1 shocks look very similar to the Protech shocks I have on my Lotus Esprit. I think many manufacturers use the same design.
They appear to have only one adjuster and that is a problem. There is no way to adjust the bump/rebound ratio. On my Lotus this is simply wrong, the ratio is not high enough and cant be adjusted. I dont know what the ratio was on the original shocks but if the bump and rebound are not adjustable independently its something that needs to be checked, whether the ratio is similar to the originals.
In fact they are awful on the Lotus but there are limited alternative choices otherwise I would bin them.

I dont really understand why people want to mess about with Ferrari suspension, for street use, other than replace worn parts with new identical parts. They knew what they were doing with suspension. Why do people think they can do a better job than one of the most respected car manufacturers in the world?

 

People just believe lower, firmer = better.

There is a lot more to it than that. Especially when you start going fast.