The Silverstone incident you speak of was during QLF1 in 2004. He didn't actually saw at the wheel, but rather held it in full lock position while giving some gas, causing the spin at turn 15 / Brooklands. Much more obvious and blatant than the Monaco incident IMO! I have the whole thing from onboard, which I've uploaded to rapidshare if you're interested. You'll need the XVID codec to play it. http://rapidshare.de/files/21907555/03_qlf1_mschumacher.avi.html Barrichello also did a pretend 'mistake' that same session by running off at Vale, supposedly outbraking himself.
Sorry for any grief that my original post may have caused, but, you think stopping on and partially blocking a live Formula 1 circuit, in a relatively blind corner on purpose, is worthy of a 3-grid position penalty? In my opinion I think he got off lightly. I know a few young single seater drivers just starting out on their racing careers and they all think what MS did was intentional and, worryingly, cool. "Just a shame he didnt get away with it, I would have stuffed it into the wall" is a typical comment - coming from "lads" whose Father would currently be footing the damage bill. I have a hard time explaining to them that cheating is fundamentally wrong and examples of this nature will, one day, kill someone.
I was there and my first reaction was WTF? It looked like he stopped on purpose. I thought how will he get away with that and disrupt qualifying like that? Will I guess he didn't get away with it.
Now that all the huffing and puffing has died down, is there even the slightest possibility that Alonso or indeed any of the other front runners, could have made it from the very back to fifth place in that race, had they been placed in the same situation as Schumacher? I am convinced that no other driver would have been capable of that result from the back., and more especially in view of the high number of finishers. Maybe in one crazy moment he did it on purpose, but did he do it of his own volition? Who knows. A lot of ex F1 drivers were quick to voice their opinions, but who is to say that they were never guilty of similar tactics. The Eleventh Commandment..........thou shalt not get caught! I believe it's simply human nature in competition to take a little edge here and there, and shouldn't it be a case of " Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". It will be very interesting to watch the progress of Alonso, when he departs Renault in the near future, and to see what he can do in a less competitive car. Watching the Doctor (V Rossi) yesterday at Mugello beat quicker bikes showed what real talent is.
I think a Kimi Raikkonen or an Alonso would have been able to do the same. I think Massa has a lot of practice at charging from the back. In fact, last year Montoya started from the back row at Monaco (after being deemed guilty of brake testing Ralfie and someone else) and finished fifth.
Fully agreed. And lets not forget that several of the cars in front of MS simply DNFed. It was a great drive, but he didn't pass all the cars in the process.
well, if nick and webber can overtake FA...should not be a prob for MS...no? altho i know it's due to the fact FA was struggling last year...
I dont think anyone is really questioning his passing ability but the fact is in Monaco if you get held up really bad while you are in 14-16th place for most of the race, it becomes very difficult to pass the guys as the gap to the front of the field becomes too large. At Monaco for instance Michael finished 54 secs behind Alonso - would have been more but Alonso backed off in the end as did Montoya. Michael was held up by the (one-stopping) Barrichello train and Button for a number of laps that cost him too much time to make up. Kimi and Webber, had they not had problems, would have finished ahead of Montoya so Michael would presumably finished in 7th.
Trulli was ahead of Michael in 3rd when he DNF'd with 6 laps left. I really would like to know how many people MS passed ON THE TRACK vs. while people pitting because he was on a 1 stopper + DNFs. Alonso and Kimi easily could've done what MS did imo. Just look at Kimi last year in Suzuka. What he did there insane than what MS did in Monaco. Of course all if this is just my 2 cents.
I don't know of any person who ever lived that was perfect. When MS is winning and on top, everyone roots for him. When he messes up, so many of you condemn him, and, like a village gone berzerk, rise to pick up your torches and pitch forks to join the mob. My mom plopped me in front of the TV in 1961, when I was 2 1/2 years old, and I seen Alan Shepard make his rocket ride. I never forgot it. He was a childhood hero, and kind of remained at the top most of my life. I read a biogrophy about him some years ago, and with his drinking and womanizing, and always pushing others around to get his ride, tarnished deeply what I had thought of him. But read on. He stood on the moon, and being so self focused, had never looked back. But it was there all along, waiting. And then, while busily doing his tasks he seen it. Earth, small as your thumbnail on the horizon. It brought tears to his eyes and changed him forever. MS is just a man. Did he get mad, angry, and twist the wheel on his car in rage against the machine? Against himself? Against fate? His hero, as I recall, was and probably still is, AS. The man died doing what MS is doing today. People doing great and dangerous things do that on occasion. And the longer you keep doing the same thing, the better your chances of making mistakes. It is a proven fact that as a pilot gains flight time and builds hours, he becomes MORE dangerous, more likely to forget some basic rule or instruction. You put the landing gear up and down each time you climb and descend, up and down, up and down. You flip the fuel selector from off to both, off to both each time you climb and descend. Some years ago a airliner crashed just after leaving the runway in Washington DC. It came down over a bridge and went into the frozen river. It crashed because the Pilot forgot to flip a switch that turned on heaters to melt ice around the air intakes to the jet engines. The ice altered the air flow and kept the engines developing full power. Did he do it intentionally? Did anyone see? We will never know, because the man is dead. So are a lot of race drivers. Unless someone can get inside MS head and know by ESP what the hell he is thinking, I doubt very much someone can say what his intent was. Maybe it was, maybe he was just PO'd. At least he is alive to run another day, and maybe someday we can recall him fondly like Fangio, and others.
It's OK not to like MS, but at least make an intellegent argument and do a little research when you add your 2 cents. 5 cars retired from the event (Sato, Webber, Raikkonin, Rosberg and Klein) Trulli was not running at the end, but was classified in 17th due to distance completed. Of the rest of the cars that finished behind MS, 4 were on a two stop strategy (Fisi, Albers, Villeneuve and Monteiro) the other 7 were on a one stop strategy (Heidfeld, RS, Massa, Liuzzi, Button, Speed and Montagny) same as MS. Of the four cars that finished ahead (FA, Monty, DC and Rubens) only DC did a one stopper. The objective of the race is to complete the alotted distance faster than the rest of your opponants, be it one, two, three or no stops. It matters little whether you pass them in the pits, while they are in the fence, or on the track. MS finished on the lead lap. It was a strong showing for starting last on the grid. As far as the "incident" during qualifying, it is my belief that MS tried to exploit the regulations as they are stated and got caught. Everyone is ticked off, because he didn't plod around like the rest, but thought through the implications of protecting a fast lap with the use of a self induced yellow flag. The worst that would have happened if he had not done it was he would have started 2nd on the grid, and it would have been a good race between FA and MS. If he had gotten away with it, it would have been a clever tactical move, but a gray area no doubt. If he had gently nudged the front wing off of the car, it is unlikely that any of this would be a point of discussion.
14th street bridge over the Potomac. I remember that aweful day. I think MS knows full well the scrutiny he is under every day. Operator Error strikes with equal opportunity. DMAX
That's great, tell me something I don't know. Trulli was in 3rd place, his car gave up on him, MS passed him and gained one more position as a result of that. That happened with 6 laps left. That's what I said before and it is correct. I did my reserach. I know that he completed the amount required to technically "finish," but he still did not finish the race. He did not cross the line with the checkered flag, period.
No, you said he DNF'd with 6 laps to go. DNF - Did not finish - is different than classified but not running. In addition, I told you plenty that you did not know or even bother to look up. I told you that of the 12 classified cars that MS finished ahead of, 7 were on a one stop strategy, 4 were on a two stop and 1 did not complete the race distance. I also told you that the point you were trying to make - That MS passed all of the cars in the pits because of a different pit strategy - was an incorrect assumption. This was the answer to your initial question. If you don't want the information - don't ask and then get all pissy when someone answers. Your further implication that passing on the track vs. in the pits has more value shows a lack of understanding of F1. If you want passing for the lead, go watch NASCAR.
You can call it an "incident", but in the clear light of hindsight it was blatant, premeditated cheating. MS broke the 11th Commandment "Thou Shalt Not Get Caught", but he was caught and nothing changes the fact that he set out to cheat. It's really a shame that someone with his record, his stature in the sport and his 7 titles already in hand, felt the need to cheat. I am a rabid Ferrari F1 fan, from before MS was born and it makes me ashamed of my support. I think the sooner he retires the better for all.
Actually it is a valid question, particularly since so many folks on here applauded MS' drive from dead last to 5th. It was a great drive, no question, but I would like to know how many cars he really passed. Technically passing while sitting in the pits counts, but if we want to celebrate the achievement of the impossible (passing in Monaco on the street), then we should only count the passes on the track.
As I said in my previous post, if you want to be anal about it, Trulli was classified. He physically did not complete the race. I call that DNF because he DID NOT FINISH. His car stopped working and he got out when cars still going around to finish the race. Notice how the results archive on F1.com doesn't use DNF. They use "retired" and "classified." No reason to be so technical about it, Trulli did not finish the race, end of story. You also agree because you said "1 did not complete the race distance." I made ZERO assumptions. I asked: "I really would like to know how many people MS passed ON THE TRACK..." Wrong, I'll just watch Kimi. I have last year's Suzuka race still on my computer so I can watch it anytime. I don't like how people in this thread and other were touting this MS performance as one of the best, how did he do it, I can't believe it, etc. Seeing a statistic that says started 22 and finished 5th means nothing if you don't know what happened in between. MS and FA last year at I believe San Marino had a great ending, too. It doesn't just happen in NASCAR. Do you really watch the races? By the way, I would still like to know: How many, and which, cars did Michael Schumacher physically overtake for 1 position gain on the track while both cars were actually racing (note: no broken cars on the side of the road that he passed). This figure should not include how many cars he passed while the car he is "overtaking" is in pit lane either entering, refueling/tirechange, or exiting until before coming back on the track. All I can remember on the top of my head were Massa, Sato, Montagny, Albers, Monteiro from the first few shots of the first lap. Oh yea, and Button, too. This is the only question I've asked and it hasn't been answered.
Well, yeah there is reason to be technical about it. F1 is a technical event all about automotive technology. A pass, is a pass, is a pass. Secondly, you seem to have answered your own question. As a minimum MS passed six cars on track. One would have to look at the lap chart to determine whether he passed Heidfeld on or off track. Your question boils down to one car. Third, I simply said it was a strong showing, hardly celebration of the impossible. Fourth, Yes I really do watch the races. Went to my first at the Glen in '73 and again in '75 and '77. Went to Detroit in '85, San Marino in '94, Silverstone in 1997, Indy in 2000, Canada in 2004.
Statistics only go so far, you have to look at the story behind them. According to statistics we had three (I believe) lead changes in the Monaco GP. That sounds impressive, but the reality is the race was a bore from that perspective: There was no lead change, Alonso lead from start to finish and only "lost the lead" while in the pits just to reclaim it. Bottom line on MS' drive is, that he did great passing all the back markers, which really is an accomplishment in Monaco. But he didn't really pass anybody of substance. Therein lies the difference to e.g. Kimi's drive in Japan last year. However both, Kimi and MS did pass in Monaco and that by itself is a great achievement.
Thanks for taking my quote out of context, I really appreciate it. Had you actually read what I was talking about, it was calling Trulli's performance a DNF vs. Retired vs. Classified. I still don't think you see my point of view, but I've given up at this point. I guess we will never agree on this. Some of us get a lot of excitement out of seeing a pass on the track vs. one where the car being passed is in the pits whereas the other passing car is on the track flying by. I was literally standing up yelling at the TV last year when Kimi was passing FA and GF in Japan. Same when NH and MW passed FA out of the tunnel in Monaco. Although I did get a little angry that it took Webber so many tries I never get this kind of excitement when a car pulls in the pits and the car behind stays out and takes the position. Sorry, a pass is not a pass is not a pass to me. :shrugs: I don't know where you got that NH was the only one we don't know. I just went to the Live Timing summary, but the charts are really a mess and I can't see any useful information being pulled from that. I guess I'll have to wait til I get the race onto my computer to find it out myself. I'll come back and post here with the results once I do. (I'll also post up a pic of Kimi on the yacht for tifiso12's thread ) Btw, I never directed that "best performance" comment as if it came from you. Sorry if you read it that way. I was using others thoughts on the race from random posts in this and other threads about Monaco.
