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the F40 is undervalued

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by ross, Jun 1, 2019.

  1. roma1280

    roma1280 F1 Rookie
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    I think the F40 will be what the stock guys call a “market perform”. I think from the current level if anything it will become less valuable compared to the other supercars not more, for the reasons below. I have owned a couple of F40s so let me say a few things that I think impact value.

    1. Maybe I’m going to say something controversial here (fastening my seatbelt), but the F40 is just not that fun to drive. The power in the lower half of the rev range is about as much as a Fiat 500. Once the turbos kick in, the turbo lag is brutal and the brakes are absolutely terrifyingly awful.
    2. You can’t drive the car (at least for the US models) without taking a depreciation bath. The market is so sensitive here to mileage it’s ridiculous. Put an extra 10,000 miles on your F40 and you just cost yourself $300,000.
    3. The car is very delicate. The US red cloth seats wear and sag very quickly and that has an impact on value, the carbon fiber ridges the surround the spare wheel well when the front of the car is open get stepped on and crack. The idiotic automatic seatbelt mechanism (again for US models) is fiddly and often breaks. For Euro versions you have the bladder replacement issue.
    4. Whenever you are trying to sell an F40 there is always a nicer and lower mileage one on the market.
    5. The car is extremely iconic. If I wanted to have one Ferrari on a turntable in a garage it would probably be the F40. I miss looking at the car, I miss it being in my garage.

    So do I wish I had one? Yes.
    Will I buy one back on day? Maybe.
    Am I a buyer of a nice one under a million? Yes
    Am I a buyer of one at $2m? No.
    There is your answer.
    Is it undervalued? No I don’t think so
     
  2. roma1280

    roma1280 F1 Rookie
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    Yes about that time I bought both a 1,200 mile F40 and a 5,000 mile 288 GTO for around $300k
     
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  3. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    what wld you pay for a 288 and why?
     
  4. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
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    F40s dipped below £150k for a short while here in the UK. I recall a couple for sale in the classifieds hovering around that sum.

    I had the opportunity to put a genuine fibreglass 308 door of a car undergoing restoration, into the mould from a genuine F40 door a few years ago, it fitted like a glove! The F40 version is just pumped outwards to accommodate the wider side inlet plus a few other tweaks.

    The windscreen from a 308 is exactly the same shape as the ones used in the 288 and F40. The only difference is tinting and heating elements in the latter.

    All 3 use the same rear lights.
     
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  5. roma1280

    roma1280 F1 Rookie
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    I’d probably pay the same, under $1m.
    I think the 288 is less iconic than the F40, yes it’s similar to 308/328 and the main way to tell it apart at a quick glance ironically is it’s ugliest feature, the rear view mirrors on stalks. I find the GTO contrived and personally to me it’s a 288.
    I don’t really understand why it’s a “supercar” but it’s become a self fulfilling prophecy at this point and it is considered the first. Driving experience similar to F40 but with a lot more turbo whine. I think the car is beautiful to look at (as are the 308/328) and I once counted the vents all over the bodywork (no I don’t remember how many). I have owned 2 actually. So would I want one back in the garage? Sure, but not at $2.5m, not at $1.5m and probably not at $1m.
    Before I get accused of talking down the market I have no position or agenda here. I’m just answering the question.
     
  6. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    in the depths of the downturn in 2009, i was offered an f50 at about 650k

    i was also offered a pagani zonda at about the same price.....

    and an MC12 at around 850k....

    if i could have only bought one (instead of none), then i would have taken the zonda. fwiw
     
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  7. schao

    schao Karting

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    I also believe that the market is generally right: the price of a 288 GTO is roughly 3x than for an F40. But why is it not 5x since there are roughly 1/5 fewer produced vs an F40? Because the market has placed a higher total value of all F40's produced ($1mm x 1315 = $1.3 billion) than the total value of all 288 GTO's ($3mm x 284 = $850 million).

    As to the impact of those three letters "GTO", my guess is that a 599 GTO is priced at least 3x the price of a normal 599, whereas a 288 GTO is priced 50x of a 308. That's partly due to the greater number of 308's produced vs 599's, but in my mind it's mostly because the 288 GTO is seen as something special.

    Perhaps these two points explain the sense of "undervaluation" that Ross is expressing?
     
  8. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    I don't think you can analyze it like that, but a little. it isn't a straight supply and demand line.

    one factor I don't think mentioned is 288 GTO's are usually bought as keepers and stuck in collections, almost all of the local F40's I know and many on FerrariChat were shorter term novelty buys.
     
  9. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Yep we agree the rv is wrong but disagree on values.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  10. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    'fastening my seatbelt too'. I agree. The F40 needs a lot of space to be fun to drive. And the US version sounds terrible without a Tubi. I said it before, i had more fun driving an Enzo on the same road as i did driving an F40. It just has more power available quicker. The clutch and gearbox on the F40 also do not make it an easy car to drive. Not as bad as a Countach but certainly not a super smooth one either.
    I agree again with the idea that a nice one for <$1m makes sense. And one that has 20k miles at least so you can actually drive it.
     
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  11. fbrs2

    fbrs2 Formula Junior

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    I wonder if some of these cars suffer from a vicious circle of not being great to drive as a result of not being driven often... therefore not being driven very often... half the cars I've ever seen are on tires so old they're cracked for a start! I'm not an especially accomplished driver but I've found my F40 an absolute doddle to drive and that's with 150bhp more than standard. The clutch is easy, gearbox is beautiful, handling ridiculously benign with huge grip that lets go progressively; it's the only one I've ever driven, ever been in in fact and it's so much better than I ever imagined; it's like it's hardwired into your brain and it's utterly addictive. $2m for a car you can't put miles on is a serious stretch though IMO. I'll take one for a fraction of the price with 50,000 miles on it every time.
     
  12. LARRYH

    LARRYH F1 Veteran
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    It could be 5 million very quickly all you need is 1350 that have the means and have to have an F40 today and the prices will go through the roof actually you probably need a lot less than that but you get the drift
     
  13. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran
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    Umm.....a 288 GTO looks exactly like a 308. Where I live in Lakeland FL, an old guy used to own one back in the day when I had a 308 gtsi. People would ask if I had bought his car.

    Umm....no, he has 288.

    But it's the same

    No, that's a special rare Ferrari

    But it looks the same.

    All day everyday when I would fill up for gas lol

    Shamile

    Freeze....Miami Vice!
     
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  14. Mr. Francesco

    Mr. Francesco F1 Rookie

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    I'm more curious to what type of F40 future buyers will be looking for.

    - Low milage, all original?
    - Modified?
    - Classiche Certification?
    - Fully restored?
    - etc...

    IMO, I think you'll see some F40 hit a brick wall in value potential, and others become outliers.
     
  15. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran
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    Honestly, if I could afford one, I would drive it as daily driver.

    Shamile

    Freeze....Miami Vice!

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
     
  16. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    i bought mine with about 11k miles on the clock, both because this 'high' mileage made it cheaper, but also because i intended to drive it plenty myself, and in this way i would not be throwing money out the window.
    fast forward to today, and i have only added about 2k miles on it because it has been in storage for the last 4 years. but when i get it back in july, the intention is to drive it a lot .
    its not that hard to drive. the hard part is not getting a ticket !

    another thought is whether the mileage really matters past a certain point.
    i will never attain the same valuation as a classiche certified <500 mile example.
    but is there really a big difference between one with 10k and 20k on the clock?
    how about 20k and 30k?

    does anybody look at the mileage on an swb, or a 275gtb? i dont think so.

    yes there will always be a difference between a 0 mile car and a 20k mile car.
    but i dont think it will be that big, and i dont think the dif will be much at all between a 10k or 20k or a 30k mile car.
    condition, history, and provenance.

    rob also makes a valid point.....most 288's i have seen are cossetted garage queens. many of the f40's i have seen are driven quite a bit.
     
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  17. fbrs2

    fbrs2 Formula Junior

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    When ICE cars are banned everyone will want the cheapest ones to retrofit with EV running gear anyway! ;)
     
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  18. Albert-LP

    Albert-LP F1 Veteran
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    In my opinion the 288GTO prices are correct and the car value must be much more than an F40. The reason are the 288 is much rarer and built for racing, plus another one: The 288, as it has the 308 shape, it's by far the best looking. I consider the 308GTB the best looking Ferrari after 275 GTB: The 288 has not a so pure and magnificent shape like the 308, but it's very close and much more aggressive with those inflated fenders.

    Beauty mixed with rarity always wins, in a long run

    ciao

    PS
    and in the 308 family the best looking is the 208 GTB turbo...
     
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  19. mikegr

    mikegr Formula Junior

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    Seems Speciale is a bargain

    Last N/A Ferrari, best of the best V8 car Ferrari maybe?
     
  20. Red Sled

    Red Sled Formula Junior

    Two opposing forces at work with respect to these cars:

    FOMO - Fear Of Missing Out (buy before it goes up $ xxx k)
    FOPMO - Fear Of Putting Miles On (so that it doesn't go down $ xxx k)

    Hopefully the passage of these cars into true classics will move the focus to condition rather than just mileage but given the number of cars sat in storage, I imagine there will always be low mileage garage queens around to feed the fascination. The idea that these cars are irreversibly "damaged" by normal use is odd. They will all need a light rolling restoration over time. I've seen an early F40 in storage with virtually no miles that hasn't yellowed unevenly with time. With time it might be become the first non-red factory car. Desirable? Definitely not for me.
     
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  21. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Compared to a LaFerrari, the F40 is a bargain.
    F40s will go up. In Europe 1.2-1.5M € it will go to 2M €
    Last and only supercar under Enzo Ferrari.
    288 is not a supercar, but a modified 308 with a "wide body"
     
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  22. JackCongo

    JackCongo Formula Junior
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    Top, believe me : drive a 288gto and you’ll have no doubt it is a super car and has nothing to do with a 308...
     
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  23. Albert-LP

    Albert-LP F1 Veteran
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    Yes, its'a modified 308. Like the F40 is: the F40 is so much modified that you hardly can see that. But when you modify a car a lot, the resul is another car. So, even if they both come from a 308, they are other two diffrent cars and on the F40 there are only few thing taken from a 308. The story is this:

    -308
    -288 GTO (extreme 308 evolution, based on a 308 and looking like a 308, yes, but the result is another car as the mods vere tons)
    -288 GTO evoluzione (a modded 288 GTO as the group B racing rules allowed)
    -288 GTO evoluzione erased (as the Group B was suppressed(
    -F40 (based on the 288 GTO evoluzione)

    This is the real story. An it's already written

    ciao
     
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  24. willcrook

    willcrook Formula 3

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    agreed, the La and the TDF have to be the most overvalued cars on the secondary market atm imo
     
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  25. dmark1

    dmark1 F1 Veteran
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    Not sure I would categorize a 1.3 MM dollar supercar purchase as a “novelty buy”. :eek:
     
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