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The BORA

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by wbaeumer, Aug 11, 2011.

  1. Froggie

    Froggie Formula Junior

    Sep 27, 2017
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    Walter, thank you for the information.
    It is indeed surprising that no issue related to the double VIN has yet come out in public and very concerning for all the owners of Maserati' of that period.
    I also believe that it may harm Maserati a lot if there is a legal case, be it because of a bad accident or because of a fiscal enquiry...
     
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  3. AMLC

    AMLC Formula Junior

    Apr 4, 2009
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    That's very interesting. I think that for Khamsin and Merak this was no longer possible because they have separate chassis number ranges for the US (AM120US and AM122US resp.). Maybe that was an idea of the Italian government to put an end to this?
     
  4. staatsof

    staatsof Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    The Case Of The Bastard Bora ... should make for a story worthy of a Hercule Poirot investigation!
    BTW I thought all USA imported Boras have a "US" as a part of the vin#?
     
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  5. thecarnut

    thecarnut F1 Rookie
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    Recently I was helping an individual determine if the Ghibli spyder he was considering is real as there is another one with the same VIN. I assumed that one was real and the other must be a fake. Perhaps both are real. This can create all sorts of problems.

    Ivan
     
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  6. staatsof

    staatsof Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Well there are all the chopped ones out there so it's not difficult to imagine a motive there. But the difference in value between a Bora and a Ghibli spyder is an order of magnitude in most cases now.
    If it's only one maybe just a screw up? No practical way to "fake" a Bora nor much of a motive either. Interesting though ...
     
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  8. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior
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    Right? and US Bora's are said to be equipped with 4.9s exclusively. ..but if Maserati is willing to obfuscate VINs on at least 14 Ghiblis, maybe there was some unique situation with the one Bora that Walter knows about..

    .. not sure what the significance of the 3 digits is, but.. it shouldn't be hard to identify.
    - Art
     
  9. staatsof

    staatsof Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    A couple of the very earliest Boras ended up with a guy in Virginia, no not Kyle Fleming, I forget his name but he liked special rare cars and I think they had 3 digit vin #s.
     
  10. alfieri107

    alfieri107 Karting

    Dec 4, 2011
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    14 Ghiblis, that's a lot. Where are they all? The https://www.ghibli-registry.com/registry/ registers now 630 cars, as far as I can see, there is no double one. In my Tipo 107 registry, tipo107.com; there are about 480 chassis numbers, none of them double. It seems they haven't issued any double numbers with the Tipo 107 – logically, as at least one would have turned up in the registry. And with 14 Ghiblis, one would expect at least one double number in the registry, too.
     
  11. italiancars

    italiancars F1 Rookie

    Apr 18, 2004
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    Oliver Kutner
     
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  13. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
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    GHiblis were the "car to have" for the rich n`famous! Furthermore it was incredible expensive. So a lot of extra cash for the company with the "double" cars. One of these "double" cars is located today Canada today. It was for sale about 3 years ago.
     
  14. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    He was connected with a chopped Ghibli-Spyder that was once in Germany sold to Virginia as a chopped car....and little later turned out to become a "real" one. The car is now back in Germany...as that what is is: a chopped Ghibli-Spyder!
     
  15. AMLC

    AMLC Formula Junior

    Apr 4, 2009
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    #912 AMLC, Apr 25, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
    About the question “BTW I thought all USA imported Boras have a "US" as a part of the vin#?”.

    After checking almost 40 cars on the Internet (to be clear: I never looked at Bora numbers before, have more experience with Khamsin numbers) I think that the earliest Bora's sold in the USA didn’t have “US” as part of the VIN. But the question could also be "which VIN do you mean" because there appear to be numbers on various places on the car and they are often not completely identical. I started with the VIN on the crossmember between engine and spare wheel, that’s the official VIN I think and I think that’s also used by the authorities

    US Bora’s with “US” as part of the chassis number on the crossmember..
    The lowest number that I can find that has “US” as part of that crossmember VIN is Bora #892 (AM117/US *892*). Bora #830 for instance has AM117/ *830* on the crossmember, so without “US”, and the same is true for Bora’s #764, #762, #594.

    US Bora’s with “US”, not as part of the chassis number on the crossmember, but of other numbers.
    But I did find “US”, as part of some of the other numbers on the car, on earlier cars than #892. The lowest chassis number where I could find something at all on the car with “US” in it was #634 which has “AM117/49-US 634” on the little plate behind the windshield.
    And #762 and #764 have “US” on the Autovettura plate.

    US Bora’s without “US” as part of any number on the car.
    But #594 for instance doesn’t have “US” on the little plate behind the windshield (AM117/49 *594*) and not on the crossmember (AM117/ *594*), and it is a US market car, see the description and photos on https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22792/lot/35/. Not every number is photographed though.

    Of course I realize that I can’t draw definitive conclusions after looking at only 30+ cars and that looking at more photos and cars will probably give new insights.

    But I saw some interesting things along the way, look for instance at #652, they probably made new plates (chassis number plate (should not be on a US car?), carrozzeria plate (see first and second photo below)) for this car, but I think they didn’t get the numbers right, at least not the carrozzeria number: https://www.bonhams.com//auctions/21392/lot/156/?category=list&length=100000&page=1
    And it’s nice to see how someone painted the VIN on #221 in the UK (third photo below). :)
    I also saw a certificate by Maserati where the chassis number was written as AM117 (/49/US) *764*, maybe meaning that it's AM117*764* on the crossmember and AM117/49/US*764* on the windshield plate.

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  16. staatsof

    staatsof Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Clear and direct evidence of exotic Italian car manufacturer organizational prowess ... ;)

     
  17. italiancars

    italiancars F1 Rookie

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    Here’s a thought for consideration, if I remember correctly 1974/75 was another one of those “New” regulatory years of bumpers, emissions standards and undoubtedly other rules & regulations, that may have included requirements involving vin numbers. (In 1980 all vehicles sold in the US were required to have 17 digit vin numbers.

    I recall Lamborghini added something like 8 “0” to the vin numbers of the cars in order to comply with the requirements of 17 digits.
     
  18. highwaybora

    highwaybora Karting

    Jun 18, 2013
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    SoCal
     
  19. highwaybora

    highwaybora Karting

    Jun 18, 2013
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    Re: 117 4.9 US 626 -- (Sorry re 'post' hit prematurely)
    None of the numbers on '626 labels or metal anywhere seem to include 'US' on the car itself... only on the paperwork.
    I will correct that IF any on the car are found (it's not here right now). It was delivered in spring of 1973 to Beverly Hills.
    Ned.
     
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  20. AMLC

    AMLC Formula Junior

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  21. staatsof

    staatsof Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    I think it's hard to tell about that car as much has since been done to it if truly was a USA reg car. There's plenty that is non stock about it in the interior but I kind of like it.

    My friend also had a 1973 USA delivered Bora # 632 and his had the US designation, USA reg side markers and it didn't have bumpers like that. Of course all of that may have been changes on this one. It did have air injection and was a 4.9. So maybe this was imported not via Maserati and converted?
    Has anyone checked with Maserati? Maybe somewhere between #332 and # 632 they began adding the US to the vin?
     
  22. AMLC

    AMLC Formula Junior

    Apr 4, 2009
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    Do you know if #632 had the US designation on the crossmember? Or only on the little plate behind the windshield?
     
  23. staatsof

    staatsof Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    I don't remember, he's been dead for 3 years and the last time I saw the car was at Concourso Italiano maybe 4 or 5 years ago. It's black and a perennial winner there. It's had a full cosmetic restoration.
     
  24. AMLC

    AMLC Formula Junior

    Apr 4, 2009
    590
    Found some nice photos of #632: https://www.allcarcentral.com/Concorso_Italiano_2017_Maserati.html
    Together with #896, also black.

    I think there’s no "US" on the crossmember of #632. The plate behind the windshield I can’t see, but it's possible that there was "US" on it I think..
    On #896 the little plate behind the windshield is visible and shows the VIN including "US"..

    Both look stunning!
     
  25. staatsof

    staatsof Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    I was there that year. I'm in this photo on the top left. That's my wife with the red pants on.I'm not sure what they're saying about the other black one when they say 1972??? It has the hood vent so with that serial number probably a 1975 car.
    At that time one guy owned both of them. Still inconclusive to me. But the factory should have a log of what they stamped.

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  26. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
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    The early Bora without the vents in the front hood are so much nicer looking!
     
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  27. GLB

    GLB Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2010
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  28. staatsof

    staatsof Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Scott surfaces again!

    That is indeed interesting and a vote for the renown Italian organizational prowess. That or Lambrusco! ;)
     

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