Please excuse my ignorance, I'm a 348 guy but I've just got to know what the diff is between these 3 seemingly identical cars? Thanks
Having owned none of these cars, I will attempt to give a few general held opinions, that I have heard over the years from a few enthusiasts: The M, which is quite similar in performance to the 512TR, is the collector car of the bunch, and with that you are paying extra for a collectable car. The external design of the M, has mixed reviews. The M has a few mechanical improvements over the 512TR. Buy the 512TR, if you really want the extra performance over the Testarossa, and are willing to pay for it. If you are going to just cruise around the freeway, and do some fun runs, it may be worth it, to strongly consider the Testarossa. The 512TR has significant mechanical and cosmetic improvements over the Testarossa. The TR has a stronger box, nice looking modern wheels, more power, and a redesigned frame. The Testarossa, is the bargain of the bunch. Almost all non F enthusiasts, cannot tell the difference between the 512TR and the Tr. From the Testarossa, you will pay approx 40K more, to reach the 512TR-is that worth it for the buyer ? On fun back roads, the Testarossa can stay with all of these cars.
nice synopsis...but the testarossas handling is sloppy compared the the tr and m and it can not keep up with either car on backroads, highways or the race track......
I have driven all three, and put a fair number of miles on both TR's and 512's. I drove all of these cars when they were new, or nearly new. There is a HUGE amount of difference under the skin between a TR and a 512, it's not just more power, it's far better brakes and much better handling. The TR's removable subframe was ditched, the suspension changed, steering rack changed, the car has less weight. The mods go on and on. A TR drives (and stops!) like a 1980's Impala compared to 512TR. Something as simple as the throttle response is dramatically better on a 512 (Motoronic) than a TR (K or KE Jetronic). Drive a one wheel of TR up a steep driveway or off a curb, you will feel the whole car creek and groan. Try it with a 512 and the car is far stiffer. I can assure you that a TR will not keep up with a later car on a curvy road. The $40K price difference is money well spent in my opinion, a TR will require less service and many items (window regulators!) were changed for the better. I am obviously not a huge fan of Testarossa's. Ferrari should have been ashamed for producing that car as long as they did, but the market took everyone in the feeding frenzy of the late 1980's / early 90's.
this exact question has been asked a bout a dozen times in the last 4 years. have a search, then look very closely at all the pics on the site. then you will know. the '94 512tr is the pick of the litter.
What i find truly amazing is people talking out of horn without going through the FACTS. Look at the stats from the original TR with TRX (crappy tires) and no traction control, no ABS The 512TR and M as upgraded as it is, also has more modern tires when the test was done... Even further still the M is not ahead. If you put a real sticky tire on the original TR, it will preform just as great.....but then again, you need to be a real man to drive it to the limits without all the driver aides READ BELOW ON THE 1 SECOND A LAP SLOWER 84TR AGAINST THE 512TR and 512M WHICH HAVE THE EXACT TIMES !! THE TR HAS THE SAME LAP TIME AS THE BELOVED 288GTO my friends !! Fiorano Circuit is the private track owned by Ferrari for development and testing purposes. It is located near the Italian town of Maranello. Built in 1972, it's 8.4 meters wide and 3,021 long. Average F1 lap speed is over 160 Km/h and top speed is 290 Km/h. Because it's a testing track, it has many different kinds of turns and corners, with corner diameters between 13 and 0.3 meters. All in all it has a lot of similarities with most European GP circuits. It's equipped with telemetry and a large steering pad for tyre testing. When Scuderia Ferrari are testing the F1 car at the track it's common to see Tifosi watching the test from the roadside; which is the closest point at which the track is viewable to the public. It's also used to allow Ferrari customers to test drive new cars. The Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano is named after this track. [edit] Fiorano Circuit Record Lap Times Ferrari F2004 (2004, Michael Schumacher) 0.55.999 Ferrari F2003-GA (2003, Michael Schumacher) 0.56.33 Ferrari 248 F1 (2006, Felipe Massa) 0.57.099 Ferrari F2005 (2005, Michael Schumacher) 0.57.146 Ferrari F2002 (2002, Michael Schumacher) 0.57.476 Ferrari F2007 (2007, Felipe Massa) 00.58.360 Ferrari F310B (1997, Michael Schumacher) 0.59.00 Ferrari F399 (1999, Luca Badoer) 1.00.226 Ferrari 412T1 (1994, Jean Alesi) 1.00.31 Maserati MCC (Andrea Bertolini) 1.11.711 Ferrari 333SP (slicks) 1.11.90 Ferrari 333SP (slicks & restrictor) 1.13.00 Ferrari FXX (Andrea Bertolini) 1.16.20 Ferrari 360 GT 1.17.00 Ferrari 360 N-GT (2003) 1.18.90 Ferrari Enzo (2003) 1.22.30 Ferrari 360 Challenge (2003) 1.22.40 Maserati Trofeo 1.23.848 Ferrari 355 Challenge 1.24.40 Maserati Trofeo 1.25.00 Ferrari 575 1.25.23 Ferrari 355 Challenge (1997?, wing, slicks, Nicola Larini) 1.25.40 Ferrari 355 Challenge (1995, no wing, streets) 1.26.50 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano (2006) 1.26.500 Ferrari F50 1.27.00 Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale 1.28.00 Ferrari F430 1.28.50 Ferrari F40 1.29.60 Ferrari 360 Modena 1.31.00 Ferrari 550 Maranello 1.32.528 Ferrari 348 Challenge 1.33.00 Ferrari F355 F1 (1997) 1.33.00 Ferrari F355 (1994) 1.34.00 Ferrari F512M (1995) 1.35.00 Ferrari 512TR (1992) 1.35.00 Ferrari 456GT 1.35.00 Maserati 4200 GT 1.35.00 Ferrari 288 GTO 1.36.00 Ferrari Testarossa (1984) 1.36.00 Ferrari 348TB (1989) 1.37.00 Ferrari 456GT (1992) 1.40.00 Ferrari 328 GTB 1.44.00
Yes orginal TR's had TRX's, the later cars with Goodyears were still flacid handling, ill braking beasts with poor turn in. Traction Control on a TR? ABS on a 512 or 512TR? I've heard that some very late 512TR's had ABS, I've never seen one. Most of my comments above were TR vs. 512TR, mechancial changes to M's seem to be minimal. I've spent hours going through the parts books comparing. Re: Fiorano lap times....1 second is a fair amount, and consider that early Euro cars (1984) were lighter and had more power. A "pure" Euro TR drives markely differently than a NA car. I can only assume that Ferrari SpA must of felt the car needed significant improvement in order for them to junk the subframe, install Bremo Brakes of resonable size, change steering rack, cut a significant amount of weight out etc etc etc. M's always struck me as "an acquired taste". Yes you can put sticky tires on an early TR, one can modify a car in many ways. Given the same vein of thinking current tyre technology would no doubt improve a 512TR. These are all now relatively old cars, hard to believe some TR's are now 23 years old. I was referring to the cars as new and unmodified. I was expecting my comments to raise a few hairs!
Are you kidding me ? I didnt say anything about modifing, all i said was Tires. Now your comparing Euro cars to North American cars....dude, get off the sauce...stay on track. The fact remains, the TR is the same time around the ferrari Track as a 288 GTO, and is only a second slower than the 512, and M...that is not a large enough improvement to justify double the purchase price. Your comments were very specific in that you could "assure me the TR could not stay on pace with the 512TR or the M on any curve"......the proof is in the pudding...the numbers are there my friend. PS the ABS brakes were first introduced in the last model year of the 328...89 ......the tests at track are new cars that were not modified........what are you reading ? PSS the only reason why Ferrari had to start over on the frame was because they couldnt make it any better, because it was already perfect If you hate the TR you are entitled, but dont talk nonesense......
I would like to add my 2 cents, an early tr is 4 seconds a lap quicker around fiorano (ferrari spec not mine)than the mighty BBi, know put that in your pipe and smoke it.
They are as identical as the 348s are to the 355s. Think of them like this: 348 = Testarossa, F355 = 512tr and the 512M as the F355 Serie Fiorano. Needless to say, the newer versions are usually more updated and faster, as they are suppose to be. But are they better? the answer is completely subjective.
This should answer your question at least as it pertains to the difference between a Testarossa and a 512TR. I made this list based on an article in Cavallino (Feb/March 1992) which compared the 512TR and Testarossa. There were also changes made in both vehicles throughout their manufacturing run. For example the differential was modified and strengthened in the later 512TRs and in 1994 ABS was added to the 512TR. Engine- Block is still flat 12 boxer engine cast in light alloy, crankshaft still has seven main bearings, the cylinders still have four valves and each cylinder banks still has two overhead cams. 1. Bore and stroke of 82mm by 78mm, 4942 cc capacity (unchanged); 2. HP increased from 380hp SAE to 421, with most of the increase coming from a redesign of the intake manifolds, a repositioning of the injectors, and a recalibration of the injectors, and a recalibration of the engine management system, the later controlling the integrated electronic fuel injection system; 3. Torque increased from 354lb ft to 360; 4. 0-60mph, 5.7 sec to 4.8; 5. Top speed- 180mph to 192; 6. New cylinder liner manufactured in aluminum with Nikasil coating; 7. New pistons due to larger intake valves; 8. Increase in compression ratio (10.1 to1) 9. Modified cylinder head gaskets due to a higher compression ratio and a different cylinder head coolant circulation layout; 10. Reinforced camshafts of a new profile; 11. Valve tappets with a new design bucket and springs; 12. New intake valves of a larger diameter; 13. Separate air boxes with filters, with a dynamic air intake; 14. Longer and straighter air intake manifolds; 15. Integrated electronic fuel injection system and ignition (Bosch Motronic 2.7) with self-diagnostic capabilities, and with ECU located in the cockpit; 16. Double independent submergible fuel pumps; 17. Exhaust manifolds with new layout; 18. Metallic type pre-catalyst converters; 19. Exhaust muffler with resonators and new heat shields; 20. Aluminum oil radiator with U circulation and without fan, allowing for better permeability; aluminum tubing; 21. Dual copper water radiators with U circulation in series and new aluminum tubing; 22. Coolant expansion tank located between intake manifolds; 23. More powerful alternator; 24. Secondary air pump with new air distribution pattern. Chassis- Up front, the chassis frame was strengthened around specific points; for example, the steering rack mounts and the front suspension mounts. Highly stressed frame pieces are made of special chromium-molybdenum steel. At the rear, the old engine sub frame has been done away with. To gain a noticeable increase in stiffness, the rear frame was made an integral part of the entire chassis. The engine is now lifted out from above. Around the passenger compartment, the steel platform, rear bench, front and rear firewalls, and pillars are all welded directly to the tubes of the chassis. End result is that chassis flex has been reduced by 25% and torsional rigidity has been increased by 12.5%. Other chassis specifics as noted by Ferrari: 1. Weight reduction of 40kg/88lbs; 2. Lower center of gravity; 3. Reduction of unsprung weight; 4. Steering points in aluminum alloy; 5. New steering column shaft design; 6. New steering rack with longer arms and more direct ratios; 7. New steering moment offset; 8. Bilstein gas shock absorbers with aluminum body and adjustable plate; 9. New shock absorber settings; 10. Lighter weight springs. Gearbox and Differential 1. Limited slip differential (40%) with reduced axial thrust to increase reliability; 2. New transfer gear ratio; 3. Strengthened transfer gears; 4. New synchronizer pre-loading springs; 5. Gear shift lever housing with sliding ball bearings; 6. New selector and modified gear shift lever inclination; 7. New single plate clutch with reduced inertia and asbestos free clutch linings; 8. Entire gearbox and transmission strengthened throughout. Brakes 1. Larger front discs, 315mm x 32mm, with cross drilled braking surface; 2. Larger rear discs, 310 mm x 28mm, with cross drilled braking surface; 3. Aluminum calipers with larger pistons: front 44/40mm; rear: 40/36mm; 4. New ducts for brake cooling; 5. New brake proportioning valve; 6. Brake pedal ratio is more direct; 7. Redesigned hand brake with reduced application effort. Wheels and Tires 1. Front wheels increased from 16 to 8 x 18 with 235/40 ZR 18 tires; 2. Rear wheels increased from 16 to 10.5 x 18 with 295/35 ZR 18 tires. Styling Changes 1. New trapezoidal shaped air intake scoops on front with prancing horse; 2. Body colored front spoiler; 3. New profile to the C pillar fins in the rear sections with elimination of vents in sail panels; 4. Integral air intake slots added to the engine cover; 5. Rear lights are now dual colored and a redesign of the underbumper to change aesthetics of the exhaust system and exhaust outlets. 6. Wheels redesigned; 7. Interior restyled with elimination of center console and repositioning of the corresponding instruments under the central part of the dashboard. 8. Door panels and armrests have been changed.
Dear Ferraristi, Wow, all that and it...um, well, looks the same. Well, I'm a big fan of the Testarossa. I grew up with Miami Vice and I had to have the "vice" car. I drive a 91 Testarossa and love it. I would hope a TR or M is better as they are NEWER cars. When the Testarossa came out circa 1984 (MY85) it was revolutionary. Compare it to the other cars of it's era. Ferrari made it so long without changes because it was still competitive and in-demand for it's time. It's funny that the 512 TR comes out only after the unvailing of the 1991 Lamborghini Diablo. Yes, I would say a TR is better. But if it was soooo much better I would buy one. Instead, I added a 97.5 Diablo Roadster. If you want to compare, 492 HP, AWD (could be seen as a curse ) 0-60 3.9s. Same basic engine that came out in 91....so the 512 TR @ 421 ...not so "much" better than a Testarossa. Please don't get me wrong, I agree that the TR is better than a Testarossa, but it is evolutionary not revolutionary. Shamile Freeze...Miami Vice !
Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will. -- Yoda
Dear Ferraristi, " I know I should be content, but I want more, I shouldn't feel this way" Anakin Skywalker "....from this day forth, you shall be known as Darth Vader" Chancellor Palpatine Yes my master, I pledge to wear gold chains and silk shirts, to scoff at racing history.....but will get the best parking spot at any club or restaurant. Shamile Freeze....Miami Vice !
_______________________ Gregg, I have a HIGHLY modified '88 Testarossa that not only has an extra 200+ BHP but it also weighs about 300 pounds less than the stock model.... With 14 3/4" cross drilled Brembos and a new adjustable suspension...If you're interested in knowing what one of these cars can be made to perform like just drop me a PM the next time your'e in the lower mainland.... I'd be more than happy to take you for a gentle little RIP and show you what the edge of the envelope feels like doc.
A simple answer for you testarossa= testarossa 512tr= testarossa with a few improvments F512M= 512TR WITH EVEN MORE IMPROVMENTS
I didn't seen mention of what I think is the biggest visual difference, the non-popup/exposed headlights on the M. They are hideous and the headlight assemblies look kit-carish. See second photo in this post, ugly M nose on left, beautiful TR nose on right... http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137230695&postcount=13
You're on crack, they went back to the way the frame is in the BB's because they knew they made a mistake with the removable section, lol
These posts remind me of my knucklehead brother. His comment to me about everything is "is it the best". I believe the majority of people looking for the best wouldn't appreciate if they had it. My decision making process was based on different considerations. I looked at a 512tr before buying the testarossa. My reasoning went this way. I enjoy taking a car and making it significantly better by modifying it. I have been with people who could quote their reason for choosing the 'best' of breed and yet never demonstrate it. I really believe when I finish with my Testarossa it will be able to out perform most 512Tr's and M's. I personally enjoy the modification process and my garage shows it. Like someone else noted, if your trying to find the best, your search will never end. John
Dear Ferraristi, I agree, sometimes you have to stop and smell the coffee. It should be said though, the TR & M should be an obvious improvement over the Testarossa. When the Testarossa came out, it was a clean sheet of paper design. There is always room for improvement. I'm perfectly happy with my 91. I like it just fine. I've spent so much money over the years to have a car I really enjoy. I really don't like the idea of doing it all over again for a car that would be "shades of gray" different. To the others, I don't think a modified Testarossa is a fair comparison to a TR. That is not the arguement here. Is a bone stock TR M better than a Testarossa? ....like I said, I would hope so. Likes: Rear deck grill, ( akin to classic F cars ) Dash blending into armrests Fewer electronics No OBD The "Vice" car Dislikes: Ugly brown dash Dash pod ( right out of a 512bb) Odd gauge placement in center console We could complain about the 16 wheels, but that is a function of it's era. Back in 84, 15" wheels were the norm. I remember when the Diablo came out in 91 with 17" wheels. I was thinking " wow, what super low profile tires, I would hate to rub a curb with such big wheels" ...yep time and technology moves forward. Shamile Freeze....Miami Vice !
_______________ +1. Modification's rule. mod away my friend.... my mod away! Have u checked out 90koenigtr's mods?? very impressive and that car would rip the innards out of any 512M! doc.
Yes I have and I'm slowly, but surely moving that way. I have quotes from Norwood and should be doing something after the first of the year. I already have the Brembo's coming and I am trying to find someone to do the body work. John
I maybe on crack, but im still better looking that YOU pfff...you and the boxer...enough already with the overbloated 308 we know already
