News

Testarossa timing belts (Major) on a QuickJack ?

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by teveo, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,515
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    Doesn't matter what shims you use if you factor it in when checking your lift with a dial indicator. They had to give a spec so they picked one. Other cam manufacturers use different lift specs to get you off the ramp and using zero lash, some are metric lift some are imperial, depends on what they feel like. And after taking a completely anal approach once the engine warms up the timing has changed not to mention the belt stretches. And if lash varies from valve to valve then the cam timing is different on each cylinder and does anyone check that all 48 lobes are dead on spec? We're only checking timing on 2 of 12 cylinders and assuming the rest are right.

    Intake closing time to trap the amount of charge the engineer has in his calculations for dynamic compression ratio and exhaust opening time to start getting the charge out when intended.
     
  2. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,764
    Pretty much agreed. My key point is what you say by “factor it in”. Exactly correct. That is what I was trying to describe. Changing clearance subsequently changes duration and changes opening/closing points.

    If it was a concern, the engineers would no doubt have factored in belt stretch and thermal expansion in their specs.

    Checking all 48 valves in a static condition is likely not worth the effort. Presumably the difference would be below that which we could measure. Never personally checked it.

    Speculating here: i would bet that the dynamic loads can twist the cam and cause the far side cylinders to retard when compared to the side closest to the pulley. Is it significant? Not likely.... if it were, the engineers would have spec’d cylinders 3 and 10 for our adjustments.
     
  3. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    6,201
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    ok vincenzo, had not an exactly look at the diagram
    but how you meassure the 1/1000? with a feeler gauge this is not possible. with such a gauge you may meassure only to 5/100
     
  4. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,764
    Yes... absolutely correct. I used multiple gauges (metric and inch) and ‘feel’ to estimate the final number between the available feeler gauges. Is it perfect... no. Is it better than the printed thickness on your feeler gauge? Likely. Is it necessary to estimate a more precise number.... no.

    In a lab situation.... such a guess would be greatly frowned upon! My bad!

    Note that the actual clearance number is not used to determine actual duration and the revised opening and closing degrees. Actual clearance is almost irrelevant in determining the timing. Clearance is primarily cited to define the ‘spec clearance’ which determines the ‘spec duration’ (244 degrees at 0.5mm clearance).

    Just be aware of how clearance changes the target opening/closing/duration.... and set your cam timing accordingly. Your measurement of duration is critical... whatever your clearance number.
     
    turbo-joe likes this.
  5. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    6,201
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    end of last year I did this on my BB. so when I remember right ( just now in thailand and have not here my writings ) 0,05 mm difference of shims are about 1,5° to 2 ° crankshaft in one direction plus again 1,5° to 2° for the other direction, all then 3° to 4 ° all.. but still not sure, may be I get confused this with an other car I did at the same time.
     
    vincenzo likes this.
  6. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2005
    358
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Trond V
    No work today just a photo of what may be one of the heater hoses and the positive battery cable maybe?
    Somewhat short fuel tank connector hose and that poor Baldwin filter having seen not many gallons fuel but still to be retired.
    Final pix is with the US spec exhaust mount if I remeber correct. Am going to cut those carefully away.

    My car was sold new in Milan but brought to the US '98 and had cats, ecu and US exhaust up to some 5 years ago when I removed those pieces and put Euro mufflers on it.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  7. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2005
    358
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Trond V
    #132 teveo, Mar 31, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
    Measured all (?) of the hose yesterday, this is what it came to:

    Water - Cooling:
    32 mm - 4 pcs of 8 cm -> 0.5 meters. ( connectors for alu pipes on top of engine )
    35 mm - 6 pcs of 10 cm -> 1 meter ( connectors for alu pipes on rear bulkhead )
    40 mm - a 90 degree piece 10 x 10 cm (cut to fit). ( to water pump )
    38 mm - 20 cm. ( return from engine )
    16 mm - 7 meters for the heater box ( all the way under the car )
    20 mm - 1 meter ( ? ) :)

    Fuel: (the best hose available)
    35 mm - 15 cm (tank to tank )
    7.9 mm - fuel lines 3 meters will be more than enough ( the small fuel lines, return, may use for WUR as well )
    55 mm - tank filler neck 10 cm will do
    15 mm - 1.5 meters fuel ventilation (top of tank) ( remeasure w hose off, may be 16 mm)

    WUR
    14 mm 2 x 90 degrees 10x10 cm (cut to fit)
    14 mm 50 cm braided hose (large hose on WUR)
    8 mm 50 cm braided hose. (small hose on WUR)

    Crank Vent:
    20 mm 2 x 90 degree bends 10x10 cm, cut to fit (braided if found)
    20 mm 1 meter braided hose (to air filter )

    Oil return from heads
    25 mm, 25 cm cut to fit. ( max quality, dont want leaks here )

    Brake vacuum
    12 mm, 5 meters should be enough, braided hose (connector in the engine bay, then all the way to brake booster I supsect ( no pipe ))

    I will have to do the heater, may do the brake vacuum.
    The oil return from heads are of reinforced silicon and appear to be in superb condition may leave them in.
     
  8. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    6,201
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    you may not use normal water silicone hoses for oil and not for fuel. you need special ones otherwise the silicone will get spongy. those special hoses have inside some other material than the water silicone hoses.
     
  9. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2005
    358
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Trond V
    Yes I was thinking about using quality rubber or fluoro lined silicon hoses for that purpose.

    Rubber hose may be better due to the possible clamping problems and those hard to reach areas on the rear bulkhead and down around the tanks.
     
  10. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,764
    Watch out for different nipple sizes for the same hose.

    Example:
    crank vent at engine is smaller than on airbox. Make sure you measure both sides.

    i installed the hose on the engine before the engine went in the car.... later, had a helluva time getting the hose over the airbox nipple.

    Do yourself a favor... get SR hoses. Then drive yourself nuts trying to source that which SR does not manufacture.
     
  11. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2005
    358
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Trond V
    My crank vent and airfilter box outlet/inlet do have the same diameter, maybe a '85 or Euro feature.
    I am still to decide on rubber or silicon, there's lot of discussions on the matter. SR do not show prices on site now but was it not something like $1000 for all the hoses and clamps? The main concern about silicon hose is sloppy hoses/ leakage, on SR hose it is the cost.

    In 5 or max 7 years the engine is out again, if I buy quality rubber hose I am using proven technology, no worries about clamping and will pay less than 20% off SR or 50% off the cost of silicon hose? Quality hose to standard DIN 73411/79 is like $20 a meter for the big hose, down to around $10 for the meter small hose.

    Over here we seldom see very hot weather, maybe 30 C at the most but usually 20-22 C in the summer. It feels a little like a waste of money on expensive cooling hose but maybe...

    It's also a problem with logistics at the moment, how long will that situation last? I can get rubber hose the next day and perhaps it's the way to go.
     
  12. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,764
    Good points - many solutions!
     
  13. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2005
    358
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Trond V
    Thanks :) have to start somewhere while waiting for parts. I'm hoping to do the heater hoses next week or even this weekend if I can get hose. Had to dig around the car and read a few threads until I found them under passenger side foot board, thank you.

    Looks like it may be possible to join new and old hose with a short piece of pipe and strong glue, then carefully trying to remove from the rear bulkhead. Maybe a friend pulling from the engine bay and me feeding hose from under the dash.

    Toeboard and cable bracket, that Clarion amplifier may not be original?
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    This must be the heater valve then, looks like both the hoses here are for hot water, the AC hose has a different quality.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Up and onto a copper tube, heater matrix?
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Looks like they used a shorter angled piece from the valve and likely a pipejoint
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    I'll be searching in the forum tonight and see what others have done to change out the hose.
     
  14. xplodee

    xplodee Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 3, 2017
    962
    Allentown, PA
    Full Name:
    Tim
    I agree. This is my opinion and I'm happy to be corrected by the few in the forum who have done MANY services, but on a car that you're servicing with an engine out every five years, a good quality rubber hose a perfectly acceptable solution. There's a reason many OEM's don't use silicone and I'm sure it's more than just cost. Don't buy into the hype that just because it's aftermarket that it is necessarily better, especially at the crazy high prices of silicone hoses.
     
  15. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2008
    4,913
    Madison Ohio
    Full Name:
    David A.
    Don't glue the hoses together. Get a inner piece of pipe with some ridges, wire camp new to old( like those wire repair gadgets) Silicone spray penetrate. Pull the new hose thru connected to old hose.
     
  16. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2005
    358
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Trond V
    Thanks, yes I was thinking about using one of those inner pieces / connectors with ridges, usually a short brass piece. Then a little superglue on the brass piece, squeeze on the hoses, the wire is a god idea and finish with a layer of gorilla tape, then silicon lubricant on new hose. Reuse the brass piece for hose number two.

    The old hose is crap, it dissolves. OEM is very thick wall, it must have some thermo Insulating capability.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  17. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2008
    4,913
    Madison Ohio
    Full Name:
    David A.
    Replaced mine on my 87, were not that bad. Replaced any way! preventive maint.
     
  18. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,764
    David,
    Did you replace all three hoses?
     
  19. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2008
    4,913
    Madison Ohio
    Full Name:
    David A.
    No, The one to heater core looked ok.
     
  20. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2005
    358
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Trond V
    Both heater hoses done, it was not a bad job but fingers hurt after wrestling with hoses under the dash.

    Have to be careful with the one that go onto the heater matrix, the matrix itself seem to be more or less dropped into the heater box it's moving around. The hose that lead to the valve is funny, it sitting on a reducer and a small piece of 18 mm heater hose attaches to valve.

    The metal band in the rear that hold cables, hoses, ac hoses was not great, it was compressing the hoses and one of the heater hoses was closed down to maybe 25% off its real area. I am not going to install that but make one that is at least an inch longer in softer metal or maybe nylon.

    The metal band way back towards the rear bulkhead hold a loom of hoses and battery cable, too short or not well installed.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Checking the heater hose end where it meet the valve, hose bad but not as bad on the engine side.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Heat restrictor, the metal band installation must have decreased the flow to heater down to a third of an open hose.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Looking good, the other 2 shorter rubber pieces into and out of valve were good and made of another rubber type.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Two times 3 meter hose was more than enough, closer to 2.20 each I would guess but this is obviously not where you want to go short.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Way up at the matrix, this one hurt, just the fingertips get to work. I used a long screwdriver and that worked out well for the clamp. I found a brand new rubber donut on the floor and that must have been meant to go around the copper and into the heater box, maybe that is why it is loose.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  21. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    6,201
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    may be F had at that time no reduction to make the diameter smaler and so used the metal band ;)
     
  22. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2008
    4,913
    Madison Ohio
    Full Name:
    David A.
    The short piece going into the electric valve is where I installed manual valve. Can easily be removed. Once in a while heat would come out of vents. I never drive car when cold.
     
  23. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2005
    358
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Trond V
    Still waiting for parts plus some pieces of 38 + 35 + 32 mm hose but slowly forward.

    Tank ventilation, maybe a little over the top but I could not find regular fuel/oil hose in 15 mm and had a coil of this in my garage.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    The drip tube from filler was totally crap, its not that important of a piece but it broke in my hands and a new one installed.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Quite a few hoses in this engine bay, nice to have the time to do it properly!
     
  24. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2005
    358
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Trond V
    Travel and logistics are somewhat limited in these times but finally got the thermostats, BEHR was out of stock for such long time and MAHLE TX1392D from RockAuto was what I ended up with. 92 degrees and fit well.
    Drilled a 2 mm hole in them as the originals, installed and added a thin film of blue silicon to the housing. Still not found 38 mm or 10 mm water hose and waiting for 20 mm for the crank vent system but thats is for the hoses.

    Added a little silicon but it may no be needed, compared to the old gaskets the new seemed a tad thinner but likely not, the old ones were swollen.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Cut and inspected one of the 32 mm hoses (gates green stripe) and with 500 miles an 8 years on it it was still like new, decided to keep them with the current logistics situation.
    If I find replacements by mid May I will change them though.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  25. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    6,201
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    you not can get 32 mm silicone hoses? those should be easy to get, or?
     

Share This Page