News

Testarossa timing belts (Major) on a QuickJack ?

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by teveo, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    6,047
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    you are sure this position is right? ;)
     
  2. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2008
    4,880
    Madison Ohio
    Full Name:
    David A.
    When you check your thermostats make sure they close down when temp drops below 185F. my 1987 TR I took mine out and checked them on a stove with a thermometer. They looked fine at 1st, were closed, and opened correctly at 190F. But after the water cooled down some, they didn't close all the way. Last summer when driving on freeway the water temp would drop below normal. I had a suspicion that something wasn't right. Replaced with Behr thermot-tronik 1.173.92.300
    Opel 13 38 038
    Volvo 271 664
    Cars runs constant 195 f. now. Rock auto parts. Very reasonable.
     
    turbo-joe likes this.
  3. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2005
    358
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Trond V
    Ordered Dayco belts and Hill Engineering bearings from UK yesterday, gaskets and shims later.

    I believe the cams are fine but I get it now is the time to verify. :) Hope to undo the valve covers and measure what shims I need to get 0.5 mm valve clearance, read that other Italian cars use the same shims, is it true?

    Do have dial indicators but may need a bracket or solution for attaching the dial indicator on Ferrari engine and also need to read up on the procedure.
     
  4. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2005
    358
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Trond V
    Thanks, found "Behr thermot-tronik 1.173.92.300" on Autodoc.de at Euro 12,59 and I will order a set of those.
     
  5. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,737
    Lots of differing procedures out there on checking cam timing. I chose a somewhat anal methodology... but it works. Others propose checking only the intake opening and the exhaust closing points. It is somewhat contentious. Best read a lot and make up your own mind. One thing for sure - most all agree that the cam timing marks are NOT sufficient. This thread may help, but it is not the ‘only’ way. My furthest out cam was 0.75 degrees away from spot on using this method. Others at 0.25 and 0.5 degrees away from perfect.

    My previous ‘new belt, old positions’ method left my worst cam 4 degrees out. It was do-over time.

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/83958-major-2016-cam-timing.513496/

    Shims are cheap to buy one or two at a time, but it is a hassle. This makes it easy...

    https://www.newcoproducts.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=93

    PS: you can never reach the ‘exact’ clearance for checking your cams... hence my ‘anal’ method was developed.
     
  6. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2005
    358
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Trond V
    Nothing much happened last week, am waiting for parts from UK. One week and still counting.

    In the meantime I was thinking about getting new hoses, most of the short hose have the spec (1 3/8 - 34.9 mm). I think silicon will be fine for all the pieces that join aluminum tubes, much less hassle getting on and off but when it come to heather hose I think a good rubber hose will be better and it does not crunch easy as most silicon do.

    I also found a developing crack in what must be the heater hose going forward in the tunnel, that may explain a little rust on cam wheels and other bare metal pieces in front of engine.


    This company seem to have a good assortment, I will stick to black hoses, they even have elbows, at least one is needed for the water.
    https://roosemotorsport.co.uk/universal-silicone-hose/1-metre-straight-silicone-hoses

    Fuel hose in the rear of the tanks is also dry and will be replaced but need to examine the sizes, perhaps steel braided to protect hoses, AN fittings?


    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  7. Veedub00

    Veedub00 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jun 30, 2006
    3,627
    Troy, Michigan
    Full Name:
    James
    Check your heater hoses going to the heater. Those are probably dried out too.
     
  8. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2005
    358
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Trond V
    Yes, all the original rubber hose will be changed, those pieces that must have been put in 2010 or 2013 will be changed as well.
    I read that those Gates hoses with a green stripe are of good quality but those will be replaced by silicone.

    The thermostats seem to be the originals, they do not close even at 10 degrees celsius, at 95 C they are wide open. They are being swapped for new BEHR thermostats.

    10 degrees cold slightly open, could it be by design?
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Before hot water
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    95 degrees C and wide open.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  9. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,737
  10. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2008
    4,880
    Madison Ohio
    Full Name:
    David A.
    I just went thru this on my 87 TR. Did a few tests on stove with thermometer. Original thermostats were completely closed cold, open at 190f. But when the water cooled down a little would not close completely. I tested side by side with new Behr therm. New one would close . This was all proven when I put the car back on the road. The car on the interstate would cool down at steady hiway speed before. After installing Behr, the temp stayed normal no matter what type of driving I did. Duplicate the small bleed holes in the the new thermostats if they don't already have them. Very satisfied with the new Behr replacements.
     
  11. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,480
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    Im not a fan of silicone hoses especially if they're anything but black and even then no thanks. Unless there's been some change to them I find them to be squishy and the clamps don't work as well on them as a gates or goodyear hose for example. Almost every Testarossa Ive had here arrived with the OEM hoses and if they lasted that long then whats the need for silicone?
     
  12. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,737
    The thing I like about the sr hoses is the silicon interior for long life, with a canvas cover for abrasion resistance and rigidity. They are not ‘squishy’ like a typical silicon hose. They also have an interior braid for hoop strength.

    Presumably, “Lasted that long”... means they have not leaked or burst. The rubber (nitrile ?) interiors do swell over time and constrict flow. In addition, they become stiff and tend to weep at the connections.

    All that said - the OEM hoses did/do last a helluva long time. I am NOT a fan of many/most silicon hoses on the market. In my mind, SR blended together the best of both worlds.... time will tell.

    One exception... the following 4mm hose works well, is thick and has a fairly matt finish. Other than the missing factory stripe, it will pass as oem to the untrained eye.



    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  13. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,480
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    Yes, lasted that long meant they didn't leak, burst, crack, still felt soft and I even went to far as to cut them into pieces to see if they were hiding any surprises.
     
  14. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2005
    358
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Trond V
    Being quite a huge task getting the engine out and later in, combined with the discoverings of bad hose its's turning into a "major task" and not just timing belts. I hope it give me 5-7 years of comfort.
     
  15. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2005
    358
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Trond V
    Thanks, never though about those small holes but will check when I get the BEHR pieces. Any sensor that is found in the cross reference should be changed, easy now and a PIA later. :)
     
  16. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2005
    358
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Trond V
    The first box with parts showed up and belts and bearings are in, am going to check timing with he old setting at first, need gaskets as well and could not resist. Old belts slightly stretched but of course in vgc with that low mileage on them.

    Removed old bearings very carefully but one of them just popped out like in that photo, very little force used, new HE bearings now. Installed new bearings using a socket that fit the diameter of inner race of the new bearing.

    Zip ties were ideal to lock those cam sprockets, did not move a mm. Counted and marked teeth the way I learnt on Ducati's.

    The iphone is a great companion in the garage, lots of pix, nice to have in 2025 when it may be time to redo the job :)

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  17. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    14,952
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    The cams will not spring forward or back on the flat 12. They stay in place without need a cam lock.
     
    turbo-joe likes this.
  18. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2005
    358
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Trond V
    Ah ok, thanks. I saw other people/threads using cam locks and thought it was neccessary.

    I find it a little hard to start on hoses, with the current pandemic situation logistics are also a little harder(slower). I wanted to make a list of all hoses needed and order them all at once if possible but may have to start with a smaller scope. So far water/cooling use inner diamaters 35 and 32, a few 22 and also 25 and 20 mm hose and a few small ones.

    The dry slightly rotted heater hose seem to go into the car in the console area and looks like a not so fun job, wonder how many meters hose needed for that job.

    Have to search in the forum, the WSM or perhaps the official parts list to get the dims and lengths needed.
     
  19. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2008
    4,880
    Madison Ohio
    Full Name:
    David A.
    Search in the forum on heater hoses, Others have posted the procedure.
     
  20. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2005
    358
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Trond V
    Still searching, the parts manual diagram is informative. Looks to be quite straight forward, but why did they not use pipes, heat loss maybe?


    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  21. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,480
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    I would be one of those that says intake closing and exhaust opening points are all that matter and I have yet to come across a cam profile that is ground exactly to spec so you can nail seat timing on both ends. Splitting the difference has no advantages.
     
  22. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,737
    The factory cites a specific clearance at which the opening/closing is to occur.

    With our available shim sizes, it is impossible to precisely achieve the specified clearance. Without confirming the exact opening/closing and “splitting the difference” it is impossible to ‘do the math’ to determine exactly ‘when’ opening should occur... based on the shim’s imprecise, actual clearance.

    That error alone will destroy any precision in other methodologies.

    I would suggest that modern CNC machines and QA/QC methodologies will cut a cam far more precisely than can be measured in the field. Again... the Available shim selection does not yield a precise clearance. Measuring opening/closing with an imprecise clearance yields imprecise results.
     
  23. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,737
    Here is a sample - nearly a full degree of introduced error:
     

    Attached Files:

    turbo-joe likes this.
  24. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    6,047
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    you have to adjust the timing with 0,5 mm valve clearance and not with operating valve clearance
     
  25. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,737
    Yes... in the above example, the closest shim I had gave me a measured 0.507mm clearance with a measured 242.1 degrees of duration. (You may need to shift the picture around in the f-chat window to see the numbers on the right hand side.)

    the 242.1 was measured with an opening of 16.0 deg btdc. The cam was approx 4 deg off spec.

    the final target, measured opening was adjusted from the factory specified 13 deg btdc to 12.05 deg btdc.

    the 12.05 deg btdc is the correct opening given the actual clearance of 0.507mm.
     
    turbo-joe likes this.

Share This Page