Tesla

GM have been amongst the biggest buyer of these credits from Tesla. From the 20 best selling cars in the US in 2013, GM had 5 vehicles. Only one of those vehicles had an combined fuel consumption that exceeded 30 mpg (Chevy Cruze) with the worst being the Chevy Siverado (15 mpg)

If they can't produce more efficient vehicles then they deserve what's coming to them and I'm glad Tesla can benefit from that complete lack of innovation coming out of GM.

 

What's coming to them??

Interesting perspective considering that it is the government creating unnatural and artificial business barriers and not the free market.

Kai

 

The marketplace does not want to pay for fuel efficiency - they want capacious and heavy vehicles intended to kill the other guy in a collision or cheap basic transportation that costs well under $30K. The Volt is and was an excellent car, but the basic characteristics are no better than the Cruze and no one wanted to pay $40K for a Volt when they can get nearly the same performance for about half the price in a Cruze.

The Tesla is a huge success because the marketplace is luxury buyers for whom a $10-$20K delta over more conventional powerplant is not that big a deal. The Tesla was well-executed, too, but it's low volume for a reason - there simply aren't hundreds of thousands of potential buyers for a $100K P85+ which I think makes up most of the Tesla production (Tesla in fact completely discontinued the "cheap" version).

It remains to be seen if Tesla can really sell into the economy car market or not. If Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and GM are having a tough time, I have to say it will be a challenge for Tesla, too.

But don't hate GM for building what most people want at a price they can and will pay.

 

The earth has already bore witness to one group of dinosaurs becoming extinct. If manufacturers continue to produce vehicles that are so inefficient its about to see another group meet the same fate.

But hey, the government could always bail them out...again.

 

CEOs have a duty to maximize profit at the old world manufacturers. If it is conventional 6000# SUVs they can sell with large margin or an electric car with limited market, questionable technology, and limited performance I know which one they will choose every single time.

Tesla is interesting but once it has its first big blunder (it will happen eventually) then we will see how it is as a carmaker.

 

CEO's are also duty bound to consider how to ensure profits long term. Trucks that do 15 mpg and a range of Chevy's that struggle to even average 30 mpg won't be doing that.

Conventional inefficient engines or investing in innovation and thinking long term. Those that stick with the first are doomed.

They can't buy Tesla's credits forever.

 

When customers stop buying those vehicles they will stop making them.

We have 100+ years of oil.

Nothing to worry about for the next 50 years.


Kai

 

...they will stop making them and then what?

Another bailout? Extinction?

Good luck with your oil prediction too. Nothing to worry about.

 

You have a surprisingly myopic view of things.

Kai

 

Sorry if may have mentioned this before....
I visited a local Chevy dealer Sept./13. He approached us and asked the ol, whatcha look'n for? I honestly told him we were at the BigE the week prior and my son wanted to see what you had for new trucks. GM has a display at the fair. (My son is 11, the BigE is a large NewEngland fair in Mass.)
So while this manager gave my son a few brochures to keep, we discussed the truck in the show room. I don't recall what it got for mileage but I questioned him, asking that I thought it was government mandated that trucks were supposed to get mid 20something mpg by now. His reply was something like, " No, the AVERAGE mpg of the 'manufacturer' needed to be 20something, NOT the individual vehicles. The trucks may improve a little here and there but the Chevy Volt has put us well above the required average mpg requirement."

I was disappointed. I would like a truck but don't want another 12-15mpg vehicle. They find more ways to bend the rules and screw the customer.

 

Sticking with these type of vehicles they have is short sighted. Being innovative and having CEO's thinking long term isn't. Its 2014.

They should be ashamed that they are still producing vehicles that average 15mpg. A early 70's Sierra Grande averages the same if well maintained. That's not progress.

 

When Tesla moves down market the big car makers will realize what they're up against. Tesla hasn't just built an electric car, they've built an incredible brand and they've made a bigger dent in building a support infrastructure(charging stations) than any of their competitors have. Much like many in today's society would rather say they drive a BMW than an Infiniti, many image conscious consumers will pick the Telsa over the Prius or the Chevy simply because it's a Tesla.

 

Good point.

The large manufacturers made electric powered trinkets to appease government whilst their range of fossil fuel burning vehicles were stuck in a time warp. Tesla started with pure intentions and real vision to change mass transit with their vehicles.

The investment in charging stations is the biggest indicator of that and they have a great deal of brand credibility as a result.

 

I will admit that governments trying to stop direct to consumer sales is a little scary. I think if Tesla were ever forced to franchise they'd need to find franchisees who aren't already in the car business. I don't believe dealer groups would be enthusiastic about selling Tesla because it undermines all their other businesses selling internal combustion vehicles. In the past with cars like the Prius and even Lexus hybrids there was always a trade off - the efficient models didn't have the power, but now with Tesla there isn't much of a trade off to speak of. Many harp on the range, but it's sufficient for daily driving.

 

Right on the money based on utility and cost. The Volt concept is excellent, execution, not so much.

The Volt is too expensive, too heavy (4000 lbs!) and too fuel INEFFICIENT when the gas engine is employed (about 30 mpg). Knock out 500 lbs, put in a fuel efficient diesel, and drop the price to get it around $30k. With government subsidies (another separate discussion), these things would be bought by consumers based on market forces and fly out the door at a net of $23-$25k. Can GM do it? Sure, based on the C7, the problem is not in the engineering or styling department!!!

Tesla is a great car, but you don't need to spend $100k for a full electric car. For 1/4 of that, you can buy a (not so stylish) Leaf. Has about 1/2 the range, but still seats 4 in comfort (interior room is pretty amazing given the size of the exterior package).

Will Tesla sell their "economy" car at $45-$50k? Probably, because that is closer to the average cost of family vehicle and people do pay some for styling and panache.

Can they survive? Probably, IF they can avoid any major screw-ups in the next few years as they develop AND they get their charging stations up and running. As technology improves, range will improve and charging time will improve, so that "filling up" an electric car will take about the same time as a petrol based vehicle.

Companies (and CEO's here) try to maximize profit in the short run. A bit nearsighted, but most CEO's won't be around for the long run if they don't make short run profits.

Regards,
Jerry

 

You can hate GM of course, but at least get your facts right. GM's car CAFE is over 33 mpg and truck about 24. And for those who need a full size dually truck with 20K lb towing, GM, Ford and Chrysler are the only options. CAFE requirements are based in part on a vehicle's footprint, too and there is an upper limit past which CAFE can't go down.

Tesla makes one luxury car in small volumes. They do it well. But it remains to be seen if they can do it mainstream

For example, I think Toyota recently severed a deal to use Tesla technology for an electric RAV4, in part due to slow sales

 

To be fair the rav4 was not very strongly marketed, at least not ere in the NYC tri state area. Also, the rav4 was just another Toyota. It didn't have any of the Tesla cache attached to it. Tesla's brand is one of it's strongest selling points.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Perhaps you should get your facts right?

Feel free to go through GM's range of products and find their combined (Highway/urban) mpg fuel consumptions and feel free to post them.

I don't hate companies that won't embrace innovation. I pity them.

 

ginge82, Just wondering, do you own a Tesla?

I'll ask again, have you ever REALLY studied the financials for Tesla? Take a hard look at the "Loss from Operations" column for March 2014 vs March 2013. The last Qtr Revenues vs the previous 4th QTR 2013. On and on.

I live in a neighborhood of 54 homes. There are 5 Teslas...NOBODY drives them anymore. They are over it...The cool factor has worn off. One neighbor was sooo over the Tesla she bought a new black XK Jaguar that she drives daily...Maybe all the plastic inside of their $100,000 car is starting to break after a year?

Personally, if I want mileage I'd rather get a VW diesel.....

 

GM is in buisness selling cars. You wnat a big truck that burns no fuel or very little. Belive me if Gm could offer it they would.

Ford started with the ecoboost V6 in the F150, they were surpised at the strong takeup. Next truck is aluminum and even smaller more efficient base engine. If there is demand, it is met. Companies dont set out to screw customers, they set out to make sales, and if they get the mix wrong someone else does the buisness.

But you want a big truck but dont want it to burn much fuel, good luck, there is a limit to what can be acheived. Audi built the A2 in Europe a decade ago a lightweigh auminum diesel powered car, it had limited acceptance because all that tech had a price not outweighted by the savings.

I am sure we could build a Cf truck with a diesel hybrid, but then people would complain about awork truck that costs 120k.

As to tesla, great product. what is mazing is they invented no new tech, jusrt smart integration of existing tech, same as apple witht he I phone. Meanwile BMW spent 3.5 billion to develop the I3 which is tiny gets half the range and sis expensive for a cheap ****ty car. Tesla is smart and goes where the market it.

If you wnat to know ehere the real tesla market its, its not here. China is the place not just because it is the largest auto market in the world.

In China people rarely if ever drive their cars between cities, they are mostly used for urban and peryy urban transport. So range is more than plenty. The No1 issue for chinese citizens is urban air quality. Tesla stops urban tailpipe emnissions. As we have seen, the chinese gov issues license plates, currently its 15k per license plate for a gas powerd car, close to nothing for an electric. More tot he point there are quotas on gas powered licnese plates, whereas an electric is easy.

The Chinese also dont have a long history of brands, so Tesla can be just as upscale in the conciousness as Audi.

China is a 20 million annual vehicle market. Tesla should do more than well there. The license plate will be easy to get and alsmost free while otehrs are on quotas. the gov can build chaging staions easily. How much market share does Musk need to captue to sell 1 million cars per year in China, its only 5%, I dont see that not happening.

Meanwhile in the USa we have cheap gas and relatively clean air. Most people are not going to pay the extra and take the financial hit not to burn gas, here its an economic decision, and that economic decison does not weigh well in favor of electrics. As to trucks, they are mostky bought by regular folks and if a 30mpg truck is going to cost 120k they are not going to sell many.

BTW GM is now offering a midsize truck for those who need less space and want to burn less gas, lets see how it does.

 

Well, I own a Models S with 19,000 miles. It is my daily driver.

What plastic are you talking about? It saves me $300 in gas a month and is one of the fastest cars on the road.
Quality is on par with any Mercedes or BMW I have owned.

Not sure why your neighbors are not using them but I surmise it's them and not the car based on my own experiences and the other owners I have met in the Bay Area.

Kai

 

A Tesla in China costs $120,000 to $179,000 without the license plate lottery of $10,000. I predict the same as in the US. The people that want one (and have the means) will get one. After that, sales will dry up. I think people here has a vision that everyone in China is a billionaire. A Tesla is out of reach for the massive majority in China.

BTW, anyone ever see the Jimmy Gervais series "An Idiot Abroad"? Watch "An Idiot Abroad-- China".....

 

Just a quick browse in here and what the hell is this GM vs Tesla crap lol. Timex and Rolex make clothes but nobody compares them.

I have not seen this Tesla cool off as mentioned, plenty still roaming around and the people I know love them and people I talk to ask me about what I think since they want to buy one.

Tesla is not perfect and this is clear from some of the losses posted. Computers before the tech boom were much more expensive vs now. What happens when/if Tesla can scale this to the average car buyers price?

For now I maintain my position as Toyota Prius being best Hybrid bang for buck for a city commuter.

 

Nope. I don't.

I'm waiting for their reinvestment to pay off in the form of a cheaper model and its well known they are working toward that.

I have studied their financials and they are in line with a growing company that is expanding into new territories and building a support system. In terms of your neighbours they are clearly fad driven. Fads quickly go out of style, great engineering and innovation don't and its why Tesla have a very healthy future, even when those chasing mere fads turn their attention elsewhere.

It isn't a reflection of the car, its a reflection on your neighbours.

 

I dobnt see Tesla building a 40k car, it will be more expensive than that. I do see tesla being a luxury brand in China, I do see the gov there encouraging their purchase. Llook at luxury car sales in China, 1 million Teslas per year is not sucha stretch. Plus their cheap car will be a 80k car expanding the share. If buick can be so big in China, why not tesla.

I never count a player out. Tesla has defied the odds in all sorts of ways. Its a new scale car company with a great product that sells and is liked. The product poves not only to be desireable but also well built and relaible. Has that happened with any other new car company since ww2. Maybe Vw witht he bug in the 50's? If they got this far, they can go the rest of the way. No one else in 50 years got near this far.